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> - iMessage, one of the only end-to-end encrypted messaging systems widely available in China. And those encryption keys are stored in China because the Chine

by cletus 8y ago

> - iMessage, one of the only end-to-end encrypted messaging systems widely available in China. And those encryption keys are stored in China because the Chinese government demanded it be so [1]. I believe it's also more subtle than that too. For example, if you (a non-Chinese iMessage user) send a message to a Chinese iMessage user the key to that exchange is now stored in China. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insight/apple-moves-to-store-icloud-keys-in-china-raising-human-rights-fears-idUSKCN1G8060 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insigh...

intopieces 8y ago
But what happens if you send a "sensitive" message over iMessage? On WeChat (or even the messaging system inside Didi!) you get censored. Does it happen on iMessage?
macintux 8y ago
The keys are only useful if the user enables cloud storage of messages, so the user’s privacy is still achievable. That fact seems to be lost in the noise.
Despegar 8y ago
What? The point of end-to-end encryption is that Apple doesn't retain the keys. iMessage and FaceTime are end-to-end encrypted. And after Messages in iCloud, you get the benefit of E2E while everything stays in sync across all your devices [1]. It won't be long until this dumb narrative that ignores Apple's leverage in China goes away. Once there's a trade deal they'll be allowed to own data centers without JVs again [2]. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/29/17405420/messages-icloud-ios-11-4-imessage-syncing-apple-iphone-feature https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/29/17405420/messages-icloud-... [2] https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-sweetens-its-cloud-offer-in-u-s-trade-talks-11554976562 https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-sweetens-its-cloud-offer-...
abalone 8y ago
That’s inaccurate. iMessage, Keychain and a few other services are end to end encrypted with keys stored only in the secure elements of each iPhone. Apple cannot access this data even under subpoena and neither can anyone who controls their data centers (China). They don’t have those keys. What the article you cited refers to is more general iCloud data, including backups, which is vulnerable to subpoena/govts. They do have those keys. But it is significant that China permits iMessage to operate even though it is E2EE. More details here on what is E2EE and what is not: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303

by cletus 8y ago

intopieces 8y ago

But what happens if you send a "sensitive" message over iMessage? On WeChat (or even the messaging system inside Didi!) you get censored. Does it happen on iMessage?

macintux 8y ago

The keys are only useful if the user enables cloud storage of messages, so the user’s privacy is still achievable. That fact seems to be lost in the noise.

Despegar 8y ago

What? The point of end-to-end encryption is that Apple doesn't retain the keys. iMessage and FaceTime are end-to-end encrypted. And after Messages in iCloud, you get the benefit of E2E while everything stays in sync across all your devices [1]. It won't be long until this dumb narrative that ignores Apple's leverage in China goes away. Once there's a trade deal they'll be allowed to own data centers without JVs again [2]. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/29/17405420/messages-icloud-ios-11-4-imessage-syncing-apple-iphone-feature https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/29/17405420/messages-icloud-... [2] https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-sweetens-its-cloud-offer-in-u-s-trade-talks-11554976562 https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-sweetens-its-cloud-offer-...

abalone 8y ago

That’s inaccurate. iMessage, Keychain and a few other services are end to end encrypted with keys stored only in the secure elements of each iPhone. Apple cannot access this data even under subpoena and neither can anyone who controls their data centers (China). They don’t have those keys. What the article you cited refers to is more general iCloud data, including backups, which is vulnerable to subpoena/govts. They do have those keys. But it is significant that China permits iMessage to operate even though it is E2EE. More details here on what is E2EE and what is not: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303