6 ms·

Hackers News Is a Toxic Place

48 points by pesenti 8y ago

ChrisGranger 8y ago
"At this point HN is no different than 4chan." -gim When people spout utter nonsense like this, I fear there's no reasoning with them.
- lightedman 8y ago
  Yea, there is one difference between here and 4chan. 4Chan is less likely to curb your freedom of speech. Sad that a site now owned by the Japanese promotes American Constitutional Freedoms more than an actual American-owned site.
- drharby 8y ago
  1 - i agree with that sentiment 2 - your comment is exactly why. Let me explain, first you express your opinion as a matter of fact. Their opinion is nonsense? Why not pose a question as to why one may think that? Consider the culture of 4chans various boards and some of the herd mentality you see on hn. I can tangibly see on a daily basis trite comments which add nothing of value be upvoted because it expresses commonly held approved opinions (ie. Anti amazon comments or issues with nimbys in sf) However someone echo a concern about the importance of us military intelligence infrastructure by virtue of supporting msft contracts with the us military, someone is downvoted as a warmonger with little discussion. The shitposts are real randy
  - ChrisGranger 8y ago
    To claim that Hacker News "is no different than 4chan", a site where one can routinely find the most vile posts of racism, violence, child pornography and so on is utter nonsense, and that is a fact, not merely my opinion.
    - zigzaggy 8y ago
      Agree, this place isn’t remotely like 4chan in any way.
    - krapp 8y ago
      I've seen people support racism, violence and child pornography on this site. More than once. Perhaps the difference is that, unlike 4chan, such things aren't routine, but I've found that Hacker News tends to segregate itself by subject rather than boards, so the toxic contingent shows up more often in certain threads than others. Hacker News' version of /pol/ would be most threads touching on the sort of subjects that /pol/ is particularly toxic over - race, gender and feminism, nationalism, etc. But yes, in some ways Hacker News is like 4chan, except when people here argue that Jews should be sent to the ghettos or the gas chambers, they do so politely. Most of the time.
      - rland 8y ago
        I really do disagree with this comment. I don't normally voice disagreements out loud, but to my eye this comment is utterly incorrect, even for "culture war" type threads.
      - dang 8y ago
        This is the second time recently you've smeared the HN community and, by implication, us moderators like this. It isn't true, and I need to ask you to stop. I'm sure you didn't intend it that way, but if you stop for a minute and think of how utterly shocking and disgusting what you're imputing to us is, it won't be hard to see why we deeply don't appreciate it. People accuse us of all kinds of shit we don't do, but I would have expected something better from you than that last statement. A lot better.
        krapp 8y ago
        I apologize for the offense, I know you care about this community, as I do, but it's not beyond criticism. I don't believe I've smeared it so much as described a part of it with more honesty than is civil, possibly some hyperbole, but not deceit. I've seen everything I mentioned in my comment, and noticed that such views seem to be gaining in prominence here, they just mask themselves behind politeness. But I will stop, since I don't want to be banned, and if you can't see the rot as well then I suppose mentioning it is pointless and counterproductive.
lightedman 8y ago
Read the comments. They highlight HN's underhanded censorship of people. HN is more than toxic, it is an American site run by un-American people with un-American ideals.
creaghpatr 8y ago
>Hacker News is a toxic place, but not because of all the people who make it hard for under-represented folks. But because of all the "good dudes" who act like it's not a toxic place. Wow, the bad people are bad AND the good people are bad!
mattip 8y ago
It’s not binary. People and forums can be fine sometimes, toxic sometimes. The question is what happens when things go wrong. Is there a way to recover? Is there enough concern and empathy to actually move forward from a possible hurtful incident? Or do we burn it all down and stop talking. We need more nuance in our lives, more willingness to actually engage, listen and change.
wjossey 8y ago
Can HN be toxic? Absolutely. Was it toxic in the situation the author was describing? I think reasonable people can have a discussion about this, but for arguments sake let’s say yes. Is HN generally a positive non toxic environment? Yep! Hugely so. HN is a remarkably diverse community. Perhaps not always from a gender perspective, but definitely in terms of background and means. I can personally attest to this as I run a mentoring program, and I tend to mostly get sign ups from HN, and they have been from all over the world. I get that we as a community aren’t always perfect. Sometimes that’s rooted in our own biases and backgrounds. However, those comments lead to discussion, which may shape or alter the perspective of someone who had a different set of experiences, thus leading to a better future. Growth comes from points of discomfort, not from sitting on the side lines. If I could ask one thing to every HN lurker and commenter is to continue to be open minded. Ask questions. Be thoughtful. Be respectful. Continually seek to grow. We’re always going to be imperfect as a community, and that’s by design. All we can hope to do is be better today than we were yesterday. And better tomorrow than we were today.
- ycHatesFreeSpch 8y ago
  > Is HN generally a positive non toxic environment? Yep! Don't kid yourself. HN mods don't tolerate any disagreeable speech. It's very difficult from Reddit in this way, where possible discordant speech is better tolerated. They very commonly shadowban users for it. This must be my fifth HN account! Given that I now posted this disagreeable comment, it probably won't be the last. > We’re always going to be imperfect as a community You mean imperfect as mods. The community is what is is. > Growth comes from points of discomfort You understand this and I do too, but the mods don't. The summary verdict is that HN is a bubble.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
acconrad 8y ago
Every place is a toxic place. More specifically, every place has toxic people. It is your responsibility as a citizen of that community to speak up (either in the form of a flag or hiding that person) if you see content that is objectionable, off-topic, or offensive. We will never rid the world of bad people. But we can choose to prevent their voices from echoing any louder.
undoware 8y ago
the comments on this post -- the apologia, the denials, the profusion of fine distinctions -- is a damning and powerful body of evidence for the claim presented. Congrats, HN. You played yourself.
Lausbert 8y ago
Does anyone now, why this one is flagged? I don‘t want to contribute to discussion yet and I always tell people about the amazing and open discussions on HN, but seeing this thread flagged feels very strange.
- pxue 8y ago
  Because this is HN. It's a forum about tech, startups, and entrepreneurship. If you want polarizing politics go to Reddit.
  - ycHatesFreeSpch 8y ago
    It's about tech and startups only when it suits the mods.
  - lightedman 8y ago
    Hey Dang, prove otherwise. You have to reach for the hardest things to justify your actions. Are you too much of a coward to face your criticism?
- lightedman 8y ago
  Because HN is so utterly WEAK that any criticism of them must be extinguished lest it make their venture capital business look bad. And dang is just a coward. Real mods can handle criticism of any sort. Dang is just a ten year old with power.
- lightedman 8y ago
  This thread is flagged because Dang is a COWARD like the rest of the YCombinator crew.
joshka 8y ago
(Hacker news toxic... have you seen twitter...? ;)
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
hirundo 8y ago
> me, down voted < HN is a toxic place. > me, up voted < What a fine symposium of scholars.

48 points by pesenti 8y ago

"At this point HN is no different than 4chan." -gim When people spout utter nonsense like this, I fear there's no reasoning with them.

lightedman 8y ago
Yea, there is one difference between here and 4chan. 4Chan is less likely to curb your freedom of speech. Sad that a site now owned by the Japanese promotes American Constitutional Freedoms more than an actual American-owned site.
drharby 8y ago
1 - i agree with that sentiment 2 - your comment is exactly why. Let me explain, first you express your opinion as a matter of fact. Their opinion is nonsense? Why not pose a question as to why one may think that? Consider the culture of 4chans various boards and some of the herd mentality you see on hn. I can tangibly see on a daily basis trite comments which add nothing of value be upvoted because it expresses commonly held approved opinions (ie. Anti amazon comments or issues with nimbys in sf) However someone echo a concern about the importance of us military intelligence infrastructure by virtue of supporting msft contracts with the us military, someone is downvoted as a warmonger with little discussion. The shitposts are real randy
- ChrisGranger 8y ago
  To claim that Hacker News "is no different than 4chan", a site where one can routinely find the most vile posts of racism, violence, child pornography and so on is utter nonsense, and that is a fact, not merely my opinion.
  - zigzaggy 8y ago
    Agree, this place isn’t remotely like 4chan in any way.
  - krapp 8y ago
    I've seen people support racism, violence and child pornography on this site. More than once. Perhaps the difference is that, unlike 4chan, such things aren't routine, but I've found that Hacker News tends to segregate itself by subject rather than boards, so the toxic contingent shows up more often in certain threads than others. Hacker News' version of /pol/ would be most threads touching on the sort of subjects that /pol/ is particularly toxic over - race, gender and feminism, nationalism, etc. But yes, in some ways Hacker News is like 4chan, except when people here argue that Jews should be sent to the ghettos or the gas chambers, they do so politely. Most of the time.
    - rland 8y ago
      I really do disagree with this comment. I don't normally voice disagreements out loud, but to my eye this comment is utterly incorrect, even for "culture war" type threads.
    - dang 8y ago
      This is the second time recently you've smeared the HN community and, by implication, us moderators like this. It isn't true, and I need to ask you to stop. I'm sure you didn't intend it that way, but if you stop for a minute and think of how utterly shocking and disgusting what you're imputing to us is, it won't be hard to see why we deeply don't appreciate it. People accuse us of all kinds of shit we don't do, but I would have expected something better from you than that last statement. A lot better.
      - krapp 8y ago
        I apologize for the offense, I know you care about this community, as I do, but it's not beyond criticism. I don't believe I've smeared it so much as described a part of it with more honesty than is civil, possibly some hyperbole, but not deceit. I've seen everything I mentioned in my comment, and noticed that such views seem to be gaining in prominence here, they just mask themselves behind politeness. But I will stop, since I don't want to be banned, and if you can't see the rot as well then I suppose mentioning it is pointless and counterproductive.

lightedman 8y ago

Read the comments. They highlight HN's underhanded censorship of people. HN is more than toxic, it is an American site run by un-American people with un-American ideals.

creaghpatr 8y ago

>Hacker News is a toxic place, but not because of all the people who make it hard for under-represented folks. But because of all the "good dudes" who act like it's not a toxic place. Wow, the bad people are bad AND the good people are bad!

mattip 8y ago

It’s not binary. People and forums can be fine sometimes, toxic sometimes. The question is what happens when things go wrong. Is there a way to recover? Is there enough concern and empathy to actually move forward from a possible hurtful incident? Or do we burn it all down and stop talking. We need more nuance in our lives, more willingness to actually engage, listen and change.

wjossey 8y ago

Can HN be toxic? Absolutely. Was it toxic in the situation the author was describing? I think reasonable people can have a discussion about this, but for arguments sake let’s say yes. Is HN generally a positive non toxic environment? Yep! Hugely so. HN is a remarkably diverse community. Perhaps not always from a gender perspective, but definitely in terms of background and means. I can personally attest to this as I run a mentoring program, and I tend to mostly get sign ups from HN, and they have been from all over the world. I get that we as a community aren’t always perfect. Sometimes that’s rooted in our own biases and backgrounds. However, those comments lead to discussion, which may shape or alter the perspective of someone who had a different set of experiences, thus leading to a better future. Growth comes from points of discomfort, not from sitting on the side lines. If I could ask one thing to every HN lurker and commenter is to continue to be open minded. Ask questions. Be thoughtful. Be respectful. Continually seek to grow. We’re always going to be imperfect as a community, and that’s by design. All we can hope to do is be better today than we were yesterday. And better tomorrow than we were today.

ycHatesFreeSpch 8y ago
> Is HN generally a positive non toxic environment? Yep! Don't kid yourself. HN mods don't tolerate any disagreeable speech. It's very difficult from Reddit in this way, where possible discordant speech is better tolerated. They very commonly shadowban users for it. This must be my fifth HN account! Given that I now posted this disagreeable comment, it probably won't be the last. > We’re always going to be imperfect as a community You mean imperfect as mods. The community is what is is. > Growth comes from points of discomfort You understand this and I do too, but the mods don't. The summary verdict is that HN is a bubble.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

acconrad 8y ago

Every place is a toxic place. More specifically, every place has toxic people. It is your responsibility as a citizen of that community to speak up (either in the form of a flag or hiding that person) if you see content that is objectionable, off-topic, or offensive. We will never rid the world of bad people. But we can choose to prevent their voices from echoing any louder.

undoware 8y ago

the comments on this post -- the apologia, the denials, the profusion of fine distinctions -- is a damning and powerful body of evidence for the claim presented. Congrats, HN. You played yourself.

Lausbert 8y ago

Does anyone now, why this one is flagged? I don‘t want to contribute to discussion yet and I always tell people about the amazing and open discussions on HN, but seeing this thread flagged feels very strange.

pxue 8y ago
Because this is HN. It's a forum about tech, startups, and entrepreneurship. If you want polarizing politics go to Reddit.
- ycHatesFreeSpch 8y ago
  It's about tech and startups only when it suits the mods.
- lightedman 8y ago
  Hey Dang, prove otherwise. You have to reach for the hardest things to justify your actions. Are you too much of a coward to face your criticism?
lightedman 8y ago
Because HN is so utterly WEAK that any criticism of them must be extinguished lest it make their venture capital business look bad. And dang is just a coward. Real mods can handle criticism of any sort. Dang is just a ten year old with power.
lightedman 8y ago
This thread is flagged because Dang is a COWARD like the rest of the YCombinator crew.

joshka 8y ago

(Hacker news toxic... have you seen twitter...? ;)

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

hirundo 8y ago

> me, down voted < HN is a toxic place. > me, up voted < What a fine symposium of scholars.