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I am Italian. And I am happy to find out it was indeed the fault of EU. Wow, what a relief! I thought we Italian were the problem! I mean, we voted Democrazia

by pif 8y ago

I am Italian. And I am happy to find out it was indeed the fault of EU. Wow, what a relief! I thought we Italian were the problem! I mean, we voted Democrazia Cristiana for decades, just because it had Cristiana in the name, and which party will do any effort to be re-elected when they know in advance they will be re-elected anyway? I mean, I always heard bad things about corruption, but the corrupted politicians were elected by us, and corrupted by us as well! I heard about "voto di scambio" (litteraly: exchange vote) many many times, but I never got it completely: you are granted anonimity in the voting booth, and you vote for a mafioso because you made a promise to him... You have the possibility to counter mafia's power and you vote for him! Are you an idiot or what? And heroic judges payed with their life the effort to grant us a better country, and in the end they got to subvert that corrupted mess that the First Repubblica was, and we did end up voting for Berlusconi?!? A disgusting divorced guy, mingling with young prostitutes, and calling himself "Anointed of the Lord"? It's true that the rest of the political class didn't make any effort to attract votes from non extremists. The few times Berlusconi was not governing, the only top priority was about homosexual rights. Nothing personally against it, but in such a catholic nation like Italy you cannot expect it to pass smoothly, and don't you think the whole nation would need some thought about economy and legality? I don't like the two current top clowns, but I understand they are the "least worse". And you want to blame Euro?

bromuro 8y ago
Yes the Euro is to blame. I’ve lived enough in Italy to see how generally Italians have absolutely no idea what’s going on in the global economy and why now the country is in regression now. They are like “distracted” by a telenovela-like politics (you cite Berlusconi) that doesn’t explain anything about the state of the italian economy and why it goes this way down. And when they try, the political discussion is eaten by a calcio-style debate, at the paradox where socially worth maneuvers are now a fascist thing, while no left parties are there to embrace the economical revolution your country requires. Politics has no role here, whatever the RAI is screaming in the news, whatever the party is at the government, Italians just accept whatever Europe or industrial lobbies want, and now here are the results. Yet still they continue to debate about useless political dramas.
- znpy 8y ago
  It's worth adding to the discussion that Berlusconi's influence has begun way earlier that many people would think . It is a know fact for example that in early 90ies when journalist Marco Travaglio was strongly criticising Berlusconi, Berlusconi was effectively able to get him fired via his control of the advertising company Publitalia 80. Advertising was already at the time one of the major source of revenew for newspapers, and Publitalia 80 straight up refused to buy advertising space from newspapers that employed Marco Travaglio. In the end, Marco Travaglio had to create his own newspaper in order to be able to continue do his job. This was early 90ies. Immagine what more than twentym (thirty?) years of this have made of public information (both public and private).
lou1306 8y ago
That's a gross oversimplification of the history and structural problems of the Italian Republic. 1. "just because it had Cristiana in the name" that was not the only reason... It was more of a complex clientelism-based system (e.g. I hire people in public industries/companies so that they'll vote for me, and stuff like that) 2. "You have the possibility to counter mafia's power" Man, you don't seem to understand what mafia is. Mafia is not just crime: it's an organization that seeks to replace local power structures in all but name. People that (knowingly) vote for mafia associates are already disenchanted with the idea of elected representatives. 3. Berlusconi was still mostly "clean" by 1994. Sure, he had been a P2 member, but who wasn't? He was divorced, and so what? (So were lots of christian democrats and right-wing politicians before him). The nasty stuff only began to surface years later. 4. "The only top priority was about homosexual rights" Come on, that's right-wing propaganda plain and simple. Stuff like liberalization and reforms of the school and the jobs market were also in the agenda of the last three/four governments not endorsed by Berlusconi. By the way, ethical themes are about the only thing a political party shouldn't negotiate upon to get votes (IMO).
znpy 8y ago
> I heard about "voto di scambio" (litteraly: exchange vote) many many times, but I never got it completely: you are granted anonimity in the voting booth, and you vote for a mafioso because you made a promise to him... You have the possibility to counter mafia's power and you vote for him! Are you an idiot or what? There are mechanisms to implement "voto di scambio". All a mafioso has to do to implement it is to to gain a blank vote card and apply a vote of his preference. Then when you come along the mafioso will give his voted card for you to submit as a valid vote and will expect you to give him the blank card that you were given before entering the voting booth. In this way he the mafioso is assured that the pre-voted vote card has been submitted and will also have a new blank card to give to the next person selling his vote. You can, at most, invalidate the mafioso's vote by applying more votes (thus making the vote card void) but you still won't be able to supply your own vote (and thus, making a difference). In the end, it's always easy to think people are stupid and that bad actors didn't actually think trough stuff, ran tests and improved the processes as any organization of a sufficient size would do. Please don't blame the victims. Stronzo/a.

by pif 8y ago

bromuro 8y ago

Yes the Euro is to blame. I’ve lived enough in Italy to see how generally Italians have absolutely no idea what’s going on in the global economy and why now the country is in regression now. They are like “distracted” by a telenovela-like politics (you cite Berlusconi) that doesn’t explain anything about the state of the italian economy and why it goes this way down. And when they try, the political discussion is eaten by a calcio-style debate, at the paradox where socially worth maneuvers are now a fascist thing, while no left parties are there to embrace the economical revolution your country requires. Politics has no role here, whatever the RAI is screaming in the news, whatever the party is at the government, Italians just accept whatever Europe or industrial lobbies want, and now here are the results. Yet still they continue to debate about useless political dramas.

znpy 8y ago
It's worth adding to the discussion that Berlusconi's influence has begun way earlier that many people would think . It is a know fact for example that in early 90ies when journalist Marco Travaglio was strongly criticising Berlusconi, Berlusconi was effectively able to get him fired via his control of the advertising company Publitalia 80. Advertising was already at the time one of the major source of revenew for newspapers, and Publitalia 80 straight up refused to buy advertising space from newspapers that employed Marco Travaglio. In the end, Marco Travaglio had to create his own newspaper in order to be able to continue do his job. This was early 90ies. Immagine what more than twentym (thirty?) years of this have made of public information (both public and private).

lou1306 8y ago

That's a gross oversimplification of the history and structural problems of the Italian Republic. 1. "just because it had Cristiana in the name" that was not the only reason... It was more of a complex clientelism-based system (e.g. I hire people in public industries/companies so that they'll vote for me, and stuff like that) 2. "You have the possibility to counter mafia's power" Man, you don't seem to understand what mafia is. Mafia is not just crime: it's an organization that seeks to replace local power structures in all but name. People that (knowingly) vote for mafia associates are already disenchanted with the idea of elected representatives. 3. Berlusconi was still mostly "clean" by 1994. Sure, he had been a P2 member, but who wasn't? He was divorced, and so what? (So were lots of christian democrats and right-wing politicians before him). The nasty stuff only began to surface years later. 4. "The only top priority was about homosexual rights" Come on, that's right-wing propaganda plain and simple. Stuff like liberalization and reforms of the school and the jobs market were also in the agenda of the last three/four governments not endorsed by Berlusconi. By the way, ethical themes are about the only thing a political party shouldn't negotiate upon to get votes (IMO).

znpy 8y ago

> I heard about "voto di scambio" (litteraly: exchange vote) many many times, but I never got it completely: you are granted anonimity in the voting booth, and you vote for a mafioso because you made a promise to him... You have the possibility to counter mafia's power and you vote for him! Are you an idiot or what? There are mechanisms to implement "voto di scambio". All a mafioso has to do to implement it is to to gain a blank vote card and apply a vote of his preference. Then when you come along the mafioso will give his voted card for you to submit as a valid vote and will expect you to give him the blank card that you were given before entering the voting booth. In this way he the mafioso is assured that the pre-voted vote card has been submitted and will also have a new blank card to give to the next person selling his vote. You can, at most, invalidate the mafioso's vote by applying more votes (thus making the vote card void) but you still won't be able to supply your own vote (and thus, making a difference). In the end, it's always easy to think people are stupid and that bad actors didn't actually think trough stuff, ran tests and improved the processes as any organization of a sufficient size would do. Please don't blame the victims. Stronzo/a.