6 ms·

Scientists and researchers are constantly saying wrong, untrue things when they are not restrained by the rigor of the peer review process. It is not a scienti

by dboat 7y ago

Scientists and researchers are constantly saying wrong, untrue things when they are not restrained by the rigor of the peer review process. It is not a scientist's informed opinion that matters, what matters is what they can show. If you do not understand this, I can see how you might receive criticisms and feel they are unfair. But deploy an actual credible source of information, and not someone's opinion, and see the difference it makes.

RobertRoberts 7y ago
Just this past week Monsanto was found to have bullied scientists into falsifying results about their weed killer. Just because the ideal is that scientists are about the truth, doesn't mean that is what happens. Edit: There's not been one single peer reviewed double blind test done on the efficacy of vaccines or parachutes.
- monocasa 7y ago
  Why do y'all keep saying there aren't studies being done? Hell, this one was peer reveiwed, double blind _and_ and done with twins. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/2871241/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/2871241/ And that's just one of thousands of examples.
  - RobertRoberts 7y ago
    No, there has not been any studies done on the "efficacy" of vaccines. You misread something. Your link is about "adverse reactions", my statement was about "efficacy". >There's not been one single peer reviewed double blind test done on the _efficacy_ of vaccines
    - anoncake 7y ago
      https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/a/1279 https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/a/1279 1 minute of googling.
      - RobertRoberts 7y ago
        None of those studies controlled who was exposed to the disease. This is unethical by modern standards and is stated as a comment in your link. Notice the results from the study in Asia: (your link) >"25 (2.5%) of 1017 infants assigned to receive vaccine and 20 (2.0%) of 1018 assigned to receive placebo had a serious adverse event within 14 days of any dose. The most frequent serious adverse event was pneumonia (vaccine 12 [1.2%]; placebo 15 [1.5%])." The infants getting the vaccine vs placebo within 14 days had almost identical results.
        anoncake 7y ago
        ...when it comes to adverse effects. In other words, the researchers could not find any side effects.
        RobertRoberts 7y ago
        Can you show me where is says they found no side effects?
        anoncake 7y ago
        In the sentences that you fucking quoted.
        RobertRoberts 7y ago
        >...the researchers could not find any side effects. The phrase "side effects" is not anywhere in my quote.
        anoncake 7y ago
        Stop trolling.
        RobertRoberts 7y ago
- dboat 7y ago
  Regarding the Monsanto story, that's why we have peer review and journals that do not allow you to publish just by paying. If Monsanto managed to get a corrupted study published in a credible journal, that would be quite a scandal. If this is real, I would be genuinely interested in seeing it. As to your other point, there are studies done for -every- approved vaccine. You aren't just wrong, you could scarcely be more wrong if you tried. * https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20692031 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20692031 * https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0010033 https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/jo... It was not hard to find these, and yes they cover efficacy. Please stop spreading misinformation, especially when it can cost lives.
  - RobertRoberts 7y ago
    This is a common misunderstanding with all of these tests. _None_ of them test for defense/protection against the disease itself. They only test for indicator of immune response. I looked at the test in a previous comment above, the results between placebo and vaccine are similar. There were no controls on _any_ of these tests on who was exposed to the disease. The second link says they had an "immunogenic response" (the only tests ever done for vaccines) but then ends with this: >... vaccine was ineffective at reducing the natural infection rate in semi-immune African adults. Monsanto effects on scientists brought before the courts: https://newspunch.com/monsanto-lied-bullied-scientists-hide-cancer-risks-court/ https://newspunch.com/monsanto-lied-bullied-scientists-hide-... >Wisner, who said the trial would include commentary from 10 current or former Monsanto employees, also read aloud internal corporate documents obtained during the case. In response to one critical study about glyphosate exposure, Donna Farmer, product protection lead, wrote in an email: “How do we combat this?”[0] Peer reviewed journals do not defend or protect studies that are never published in the first place. [0] baumhedlundlaw.com/pdf/monsanto-documents/41-Internal-Email-from-2008-Monsanto-Executive-Long-Aware-of-Glyphosate-Link-to-non-Hodgkin-Lymphoma.pdf
    - dboat 7y ago
      This is an ugly way to argue. When debunked, instead of owning anything you add new arguments, moving on as if it had any bearing on the previous points. I see now why you don't want to "fight" people here. You do not deserve to complain about not wanting a fight when you behave in such a way. > Peer reviewed journals do not defend or protect studies that are never published in the first place. Obviously. That's why studies which are not published in quality journals are not considered credible by the scientific community. You ever talk to a flat-earther? Or an Obama birther? How about a climate change denier? If you aren't willing to pay much attention all of these positions can be defended. But as soon as you ask for a credible source, you get the same thing you tried earlier "I don't want to fight, I just want to spread BS freely." If they do deploy some sort of source and you show them what's wrong with it, they just move on, exactly like you tried to do multiple times in this thread. Nobody gets to be right all the time, so I don't blame anyone who doesn't have enough time/interest to educate themselves for falling for these ideas. Where it becomes pitiful however, is when someone is shown over and over again and they do nothing but dig in and move on, instead of accepting when they got it wrong. If your insistence ever successfully convinces someone not to vaccinate their child, who then goes on to needlessly spread infections in their school, then you can no longer say that your ignorance is harmless. In my meager experience most people like you will just dig in further and further until the day they die. Not all though. Continue to vigorously defend your ignronace if you want - it's your choice, but you can't say no one ever tried to tell you better. Whatever harm you manage to cause with your position, you fought hard to keep causing it.

by dboat 7y ago

RobertRoberts 7y ago

Just this past week Monsanto was found to have bullied scientists into falsifying results about their weed killer. Just because the ideal is that scientists are about the truth, doesn't mean that is what happens. Edit: There's not been one single peer reviewed double blind test done on the efficacy of vaccines or parachutes.

monocasa 7y ago
Why do y'all keep saying there aren't studies being done? Hell, this one was peer reveiwed, double blind _and_ and done with twins. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/2871241/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/2871241/ And that's just one of thousands of examples.
- RobertRoberts 7y ago
  No, there has not been any studies done on the "efficacy" of vaccines. You misread something. Your link is about "adverse reactions", my statement was about "efficacy". >There's not been one single peer reviewed double blind test done on the _efficacy_ of vaccines
  - anoncake 7y ago
    https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/a/1279 https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/a/1279 1 minute of googling.
    - RobertRoberts 7y ago
      None of those studies controlled who was exposed to the disease. This is unethical by modern standards and is stated as a comment in your link. Notice the results from the study in Asia: (your link) >"25 (2.5%) of 1017 infants assigned to receive vaccine and 20 (2.0%) of 1018 assigned to receive placebo had a serious adverse event within 14 days of any dose. The most frequent serious adverse event was pneumonia (vaccine 12 [1.2%]; placebo 15 [1.5%])." The infants getting the vaccine vs placebo within 14 days had almost identical results.
      - anoncake 7y ago
        ...when it comes to adverse effects. In other words, the researchers could not find any side effects.
        RobertRoberts 7y ago
        Can you show me where is says they found no side effects?
        anoncake 7y ago
        In the sentences that you fucking quoted.
        RobertRoberts 7y ago
        >...the researchers could not find any side effects. The phrase "side effects" is not anywhere in my quote.
        anoncake 7y ago
        Stop trolling.
        RobertRoberts 7y ago
dboat 7y ago
Regarding the Monsanto story, that's why we have peer review and journals that do not allow you to publish just by paying. If Monsanto managed to get a corrupted study published in a credible journal, that would be quite a scandal. If this is real, I would be genuinely interested in seeing it. As to your other point, there are studies done for -every- approved vaccine. You aren't just wrong, you could scarcely be more wrong if you tried. * https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20692031 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20692031 * https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0010033 https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/jo... It was not hard to find these, and yes they cover efficacy. Please stop spreading misinformation, especially when it can cost lives.
- RobertRoberts 7y ago
  This is a common misunderstanding with all of these tests. _None_ of them test for defense/protection against the disease itself. They only test for indicator of immune response. I looked at the test in a previous comment above, the results between placebo and vaccine are similar. There were no controls on _any_ of these tests on who was exposed to the disease. The second link says they had an "immunogenic response" (the only tests ever done for vaccines) but then ends with this: >... vaccine was ineffective at reducing the natural infection rate in semi-immune African adults. Monsanto effects on scientists brought before the courts: https://newspunch.com/monsanto-lied-bullied-scientists-hide-cancer-risks-court/ https://newspunch.com/monsanto-lied-bullied-scientists-hide-... >Wisner, who said the trial would include commentary from 10 current or former Monsanto employees, also read aloud internal corporate documents obtained during the case. In response to one critical study about glyphosate exposure, Donna Farmer, product protection lead, wrote in an email: “How do we combat this?”[0] Peer reviewed journals do not defend or protect studies that are never published in the first place. [0] baumhedlundlaw.com/pdf/monsanto-documents/41-Internal-Email-from-2008-Monsanto-Executive-Long-Aware-of-Glyphosate-Link-to-non-Hodgkin-Lymphoma.pdf
  - dboat 7y ago
    This is an ugly way to argue. When debunked, instead of owning anything you add new arguments, moving on as if it had any bearing on the previous points. I see now why you don't want to "fight" people here. You do not deserve to complain about not wanting a fight when you behave in such a way. > Peer reviewed journals do not defend or protect studies that are never published in the first place. Obviously. That's why studies which are not published in quality journals are not considered credible by the scientific community. You ever talk to a flat-earther? Or an Obama birther? How about a climate change denier? If you aren't willing to pay much attention all of these positions can be defended. But as soon as you ask for a credible source, you get the same thing you tried earlier "I don't want to fight, I just want to spread BS freely." If they do deploy some sort of source and you show them what's wrong with it, they just move on, exactly like you tried to do multiple times in this thread. Nobody gets to be right all the time, so I don't blame anyone who doesn't have enough time/interest to educate themselves for falling for these ideas. Where it becomes pitiful however, is when someone is shown over and over again and they do nothing but dig in and move on, instead of accepting when they got it wrong. If your insistence ever successfully convinces someone not to vaccinate their child, who then goes on to needlessly spread infections in their school, then you can no longer say that your ignorance is harmless. In my meager experience most people like you will just dig in further and further until the day they die. Not all though. Continue to vigorously defend your ignronace if you want - it's your choice, but you can't say no one ever tried to tell you better. Whatever harm you manage to cause with your position, you fought hard to keep causing it.