3 ms·

Of course you don't want to use the ground as your neutral. In normal wiring it's not designed to do that job so it sucks at it. I'm talking about the polarit

Of course you don't want to use the ground as your neutral. In normal wiring it's not designed to do that job so it sucks at it. I'm talking about the polarity of the line and the load as it relates to the device being powered. Your comment seems like a complete and total non-sequitur to that. I'm talking about a directional plug here. > Your advice could kill people, I am not giving any advice. I'm saying that unless you're doing something complex involving the neutral and ground no technical reason the neutral and the hot contacts on any given device are not interchangeable because the electrons are going both directions anyway. > it's not reasonable to claim that decades of expensive electrical mains and appliance design&manufacturing was done for no benefit. You can still get devices in 2019 that are not grounded (common) and do not have a directional plug (rare). >Neutral closes the mains circuit also is grounded, protecting the electrified portion against accidental activation. How is this related to what I said? Yes neutral and ground are both "grounded to the ground" at some point (usually the panel) but the device being plugged in doesn't know the difference between the neutral and the live wire because its getting its electrons from both (because AC).

pgeorgi 8y ago
> and do not have a directional plug (rare). https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Schuko_%28CEE_7-3%29_socket-outlets%2C_with_and_without_shutters.jpg/800px-Schuko_%28CEE_7-3%29_socket-outlets%2C_with_and_without_shutters.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Sc... What would a directional plug for this socket look like?
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  I don't know. A non-directional/non-polarized plug would just omit the features that engage the key-ways on the side enabling you to plug it in whichever way you want. If you want to make it directional/polarized just engage the key-ways so the user can only plug it in one way. In North America we have these[1] for things that don't have a metal case and on cheaper devices both blades are often the same size allowing you to plug it into an outlet whichever way you want. [1]https://cdn.sparkfun.com/assets/5/1/0/d/c/51154c1cce395f903d000001.jpg https://cdn.sparkfun.com/assets/5/1/0/d/c/51154c1cce395f903d...
  - wongarsu 8y ago
    What parent is getting at is that Socket Type F "Schuko", one of the most popular socket types, is completely symmetrical and inherently non-polarized. Since any plug compatible with Schuko is non-directional calling non-directional plugs rare is factually wrong (if we talk globally). It also proves your point that the difference between life and neutral largely doesn't matter, since in about half the world wall sockets don't care about the difference.
jlokier 8y ago
> I'm saying that unless you're doing something complex involving the neutral and ground no technical reason the neutral and the hot contacts on any given device are not interchangeable because the electrons are going both directions anyway. They are not interchangable for safety, electric shock, or EMC purposes, because the AC voltage range at neutral and hot contacts are very different. This is when the voltage is measured relative to the nearby environment. Roughly speaking, the neutral AC voltage may oscillate around +/-2V (that's all), relative to the surrounding environment.[] If it's more than that you probably have a fault. Whereas the hot AC voltage will oscillate around the full range you'd expect (~110V RMS or ~230V RMS depending on country). This makes them very different, with regard to human safety, other safety (such as sparking against an earthed pipe, causing fire, contact with water), and current flow to the environment via capacitive coupling. [] - Neutral is bonded to ground somewhere, but not at the mains outlet. The reason it's not zero and a small voltage appears, is because all the devices plugged in closer than the neutral-to-earth bond contribute a small "pull" to the neutral voltage, competing with the bonded voltage.

pgeorgi 8y ago

> and do not have a directional plug (rare). https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Schuko_%28CEE_7-3%29_socket-outlets%2C_with_and_without_shutters.jpg/800px-Schuko_%28CEE_7-3%29_socket-outlets%2C_with_and_without_shutters.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Sc... What would a directional plug for this socket look like?

dsfyu404ed 8y ago
I don't know. A non-directional/non-polarized plug would just omit the features that engage the key-ways on the side enabling you to plug it in whichever way you want. If you want to make it directional/polarized just engage the key-ways so the user can only plug it in one way. In North America we have these[1] for things that don't have a metal case and on cheaper devices both blades are often the same size allowing you to plug it into an outlet whichever way you want. [1]https://cdn.sparkfun.com/assets/5/1/0/d/c/51154c1cce395f903d000001.jpg https://cdn.sparkfun.com/assets/5/1/0/d/c/51154c1cce395f903d...
- wongarsu 8y ago
  What parent is getting at is that Socket Type F "Schuko", one of the most popular socket types, is completely symmetrical and inherently non-polarized. Since any plug compatible with Schuko is non-directional calling non-directional plugs rare is factually wrong (if we talk globally). It also proves your point that the difference between life and neutral largely doesn't matter, since in about half the world wall sockets don't care about the difference.

jlokier 8y ago

> I'm saying that unless you're doing something complex involving the neutral and ground no technical reason the neutral and the hot contacts on any given device are not interchangeable because the electrons are going both directions anyway. They are not interchangable for safety, electric shock, or EMC purposes, because the AC voltage range at neutral and hot contacts are very different. This is when the voltage is measured relative to the nearby environment. Roughly speaking, the neutral AC voltage may oscillate around +/-2V (that's all), relative to the surrounding environment.[] If it's more than that you probably have a fault. Whereas the hot AC voltage will oscillate around the full range you'd expect (~110V RMS or ~230V RMS depending on country). This makes them very different, with regard to human safety, other safety (such as sparking against an earthed pipe, causing fire, contact with water), and current flow to the environment via capacitive coupling. [] - Neutral is bonded to ground somewhere, but not at the mains outlet. The reason it's not zero and a small voltage appears, is because all the devices plugged in closer than the neutral-to-earth bond contribute a small "pull" to the neutral voltage, competing with the bonded voltage.