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As a Japanese native, it pains me a lot when the westerners come upon linguistic differences like this and start calling them things like "overly odd" or "infer

As a Japanese native, it pains me a lot when the westerners come upon linguistic differences like this and start calling them things like "overly odd" or "inferior" as they seem to be doing in the comments here. I can't help but smell a whiff of anglophonic condescension - I had thought political correctness have swept over the west over the last few years, but perhaps they only selectively apply to those who can talk back to you?

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cryptnotic 8y ago
Are you complaining about a lack of political correctness? Political correctness gives deference to people who are just a fashionable minority. If you think that the Japanese are among that group, then I’m sorry you have such a low opinion of your people.
- tinus_hn 8y ago
  What do you mean with ‘fashionable minority’? It sounds pretty condescending.
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cmroanirgo 8y ago
Reading the article showed me how ignorant I was to this problem... so much so that I'm surprised I haven't seen more articles like this in the past. For all the talk on ML and PC here, it's surprising that language is still a huge unsolved issue. As someoneone who knows a tiny amount of Japanese, I'm surprised that a common solution is to provide the katakana equivalent. Outside of the tech realm, is this really what a native Japanese would write on (say) a physical/ paper document: both the Kanji and Katakana?
- fenomas 8y ago
  Yes, entering a name's kanji and kana separately is standard for most any form in Japan, whether digital or on paper.
- opan 8y ago
  There was a scene in Sakurada Reset where the main character writes his name on a form in katakana and then is questioned about it. He says something about how people typically pronounce his name wrong so he writes it that way.
Isinlor 8y ago
I don't think languages deserve any special protection. People do. Also, I think that all languages are supper weird, and because of that they have their own unique cultural value that can't be measured. But in terms of economical value: 1. English happens to have the most speakers if you sum L1 and L2 speakers (1.132 billion) 2. English has by far the biggest non native speaker representation (753.3 million) 3. Speaking English gives a lot of economical opportunities, because English is widely spoken among the richest people in the world. By rich people I mean top 1% with more than 30 000$ income per year i.e. people living in USA, Western Europe, Australia etc. Because of these 3 points I do consider all other languages, including my native Polish, inferior as a tools. And I say this even tough I'm fully aware that millions were dying across world and history in defense of their native speech. History of my own nation and my native language is a perfect example. Millions of Poles died in defense of Polish language against Germans and Russians. "We won't forsake the land we came from, We won't let our speech be buried. We are the Polish nation, the Polish people, From the royal line of Piast. We won't let the enemy oppress us. (...) The German won't spit in our face, Nor Germanise our children, Our host will arise in arms, Spirit will lead the way. We will go when the golden horn sounds. (...)" But I think it is exactly the fact that we were not able to communicate with each other that lead to the World Wars in the first place. I'm studding now in English in a super diverse Dutch university with Germans, Russians, Chinese, Koreans, Arabs, Belgians, French and many other nations, and thought that some 100 years ago we would be all trying to kill each other while living in trenches is just unimaginable. English facilitates that and I would want more people across the world to participate. Being defensive and overly proud of our native language will not help with that.
- snrji 8y ago
  Couldn't disagree more. As you said, people do deserve protection, but who do you think that you are protecting when you protect languages? Exactly, when you protect a language you are protecting people who speak it. If you want to get rid of your native language, fine, but do not force other people to do so.
  - Isinlor 8y ago
    I don't want to force anyone to do anything. I just express my opinion. And certain things are just facts like learning English will give you superior economical power. I don't think there is any reason to protect language from criticism. Polish declination an conjugation as well as use of a lot "sz", "cz", "dz" etc. makes it hard to learn language. It's a fair criticism. If you want to do machine learning in Polish you will have a lot of issues. No one should get offended by that. Also, there is also a lot of forms that makes Polish difficult to use for native speakers like "wyszedłem" (I, as a man, went out) the correct spelling vs. "wyszłem" an incorrect spelling that seems to be easier to use for many people. Therefore, a lot of language protection is focused on excluding people. You don't know how to use language correctly so you are inferior. It's very common sentiment among Polish people. We even have a special body to say what should be considered correct - Polish Language Council. French have Académie française. Even in English, especially in academia, people like to have this snobbish attitude that you should not mix British and American forms in a single text. This is certainly not intended to protect anyone, but to exclude people less proficient in English. I think the most stark example of excluding people based on language I saw myself was in Belgium in Dutch speaking Flanders. If I'm not mistaken they have a law that explicitly forbids teaching bachelor degrees in anything but Dutch. This excludes a lot of French speaking Walloons from participating in Flemish universities. Some of them end up in Netherlands where attitude to language is less protectionists and a lot of bachelor programs are in English. On the other hand, in Wallonia you may come across people who will pretend to not speak English. They will understand you, but they will be hostile. It's their part of country, their rules, but I'm not afraid to call it rude. Again, people deserve protection. For example, you should be able to conduct your business with your government in the language that you speak. But there is no need to be protective of languages themselves and often this protectionism is a weapon on its own.
Baeocystin 8y ago
There are many wonderful things about both the Japanese language and writing system, and I say that with sincerity. Simplicity of sorting is not one of those things.

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cryptnotic 8y ago

Are you complaining about a lack of political correctness? Political correctness gives deference to people who are just a fashionable minority. If you think that the Japanese are among that group, then I’m sorry you have such a low opinion of your people.

tinus_hn 8y ago
What do you mean with ‘fashionable minority’? It sounds pretty condescending.

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cmroanirgo 8y ago

Reading the article showed me how ignorant I was to this problem... so much so that I'm surprised I haven't seen more articles like this in the past. For all the talk on ML and PC here, it's surprising that language is still a huge unsolved issue. As someoneone who knows a tiny amount of Japanese, I'm surprised that a common solution is to provide the katakana equivalent. Outside of the tech realm, is this really what a native Japanese would write on (say) a physical/ paper document: both the Kanji and Katakana?

fenomas 8y ago
Yes, entering a name's kanji and kana separately is standard for most any form in Japan, whether digital or on paper.
opan 8y ago
There was a scene in Sakurada Reset where the main character writes his name on a form in katakana and then is questioned about it. He says something about how people typically pronounce his name wrong so he writes it that way.

Isinlor 8y ago

I don't think languages deserve any special protection. People do. Also, I think that all languages are supper weird, and because of that they have their own unique cultural value that can't be measured. But in terms of economical value: 1. English happens to have the most speakers if you sum L1 and L2 speakers (1.132 billion) 2. English has by far the biggest non native speaker representation (753.3 million) 3. Speaking English gives a lot of economical opportunities, because English is widely spoken among the richest people in the world. By rich people I mean top 1% with more than 30 000$ income per year i.e. people living in USA, Western Europe, Australia etc. Because of these 3 points I do consider all other languages, including my native Polish, inferior as a tools. And I say this even tough I'm fully aware that millions were dying across world and history in defense of their native speech. History of my own nation and my native language is a perfect example. Millions of Poles died in defense of Polish language against Germans and Russians. "We won't forsake the land we came from, We won't let our speech be buried. We are the Polish nation, the Polish people, From the royal line of Piast. We won't let the enemy oppress us. (...) The German won't spit in our face, Nor Germanise our children, Our host will arise in arms, Spirit will lead the way. We will go when the golden horn sounds. (...)" But I think it is exactly the fact that we were not able to communicate with each other that lead to the World Wars in the first place. I'm studding now in English in a super diverse Dutch university with Germans, Russians, Chinese, Koreans, Arabs, Belgians, French and many other nations, and thought that some 100 years ago we would be all trying to kill each other while living in trenches is just unimaginable. English facilitates that and I would want more people across the world to participate. Being defensive and overly proud of our native language will not help with that.

snrji 8y ago
Couldn't disagree more. As you said, people do deserve protection, but who do you think that you are protecting when you protect languages? Exactly, when you protect a language you are protecting people who speak it. If you want to get rid of your native language, fine, but do not force other people to do so.
- Isinlor 8y ago
  I don't want to force anyone to do anything. I just express my opinion. And certain things are just facts like learning English will give you superior economical power. I don't think there is any reason to protect language from criticism. Polish declination an conjugation as well as use of a lot "sz", "cz", "dz" etc. makes it hard to learn language. It's a fair criticism. If you want to do machine learning in Polish you will have a lot of issues. No one should get offended by that. Also, there is also a lot of forms that makes Polish difficult to use for native speakers like "wyszedłem" (I, as a man, went out) the correct spelling vs. "wyszłem" an incorrect spelling that seems to be easier to use for many people. Therefore, a lot of language protection is focused on excluding people. You don't know how to use language correctly so you are inferior. It's very common sentiment among Polish people. We even have a special body to say what should be considered correct - Polish Language Council. French have Académie française. Even in English, especially in academia, people like to have this snobbish attitude that you should not mix British and American forms in a single text. This is certainly not intended to protect anyone, but to exclude people less proficient in English. I think the most stark example of excluding people based on language I saw myself was in Belgium in Dutch speaking Flanders. If I'm not mistaken they have a law that explicitly forbids teaching bachelor degrees in anything but Dutch. This excludes a lot of French speaking Walloons from participating in Flemish universities. Some of them end up in Netherlands where attitude to language is less protectionists and a lot of bachelor programs are in English. On the other hand, in Wallonia you may come across people who will pretend to not speak English. They will understand you, but they will be hostile. It's their part of country, their rules, but I'm not afraid to call it rude. Again, people deserve protection. For example, you should be able to conduct your business with your government in the language that you speak. But there is no need to be protective of languages themselves and often this protectionism is a weapon on its own.

Baeocystin 8y ago

There are many wonderful things about both the Japanese language and writing system, and I say that with sincerity. Simplicity of sorting is not one of those things.