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> Until it becomes socially acceptable to talk openly about Well you see, I would hate to live in a world where it became socially acceptable to talk about hum

> Until it becomes socially acceptable to talk openly about Well you see, I would hate to live in a world where it became socially acceptable to talk about human sexuality I think it is good to be able to talk about it to your close friends / family But I'm already disgusted when I hear coworkers talk about porn or their (most of the time imaginary) sexual life. I think it is a very personal subject, and maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like you'd get less freedom in your sexual life if everybody was talking openly about it. Part of why I think that way is: people have weird fetishes for example, you could think in a society where you can talk openly about sex and you sexual life you could talk about your weird fetish, but I don't think that's the case, only "popular" fetishes / sexual preferences would be discussed, and "weird" fetishes / sexual preferences would be seen as degenerate. Again this is my opinion, maybe I'm wrong, but I would definitely not want to talk openly about sex with random people.

Erlich_Bachman 8y ago
> but I feel like you'd get less freedom in your sexual life if everybody was talking openly about it. Part of why I think that way is: people have weird fetishes for example, you could think in a society where you can talk openly about sex and you sexual life you could talk about your weird fetish, but I don't think that's the case, only "popular" fetishes / sexual preferences would be discussed, and "weird" fetishes / sexual preferences would be seen as degenerate. Likely exactly the other way around: people would hear other people having weird fetishes, and they would understand that most people have this weird side to them, and they would be more ok with their own weirdness.
- tsukurimashou 8y ago
  Look at society and political opinions, these days if you're not politically correct you're being shamed and put apart from the rest. Talking about it didn't make people understand that "most people have this weird side of them", on the contrary I don't like porn being mainstream, and I don't want to know how is a fury or not at my office. I don't think you need approval or random people to feel better. Find someone you love, find good friends, if you're lucky have a family. These are the people you want to talk these subjects, not some random coworker or someone you've met 2min ago.
  - Broken_Hippo 8y ago
    At least 8 times out of 10, those complaining about "political correctness" are complaining that they are expected to treat others respectfully. Not calling someone by the right gender when they know what the person prefers, for example. I don't think folks should get offended when strangers mess up, but that's another story. Sometimes random people are the best folks to talk to about this stuff. Just like other things, they might mention something you simply never considered before. Besides, you really have no way of knowing how much the coworkers speak, and most aren't talking about this in the first hour of work. Porn being mainstream means that folks don't have to hide the behavior as much and no one will be surprised when they find out their lover, sibling, friend, or so on watches porn. I truly don't want to have a family - I do not want children. I'm female and 40, and I hate folks pushing this stuff on me. There is much more to life than this sort of thing. The goal of life isn't to find love either. I'm OK being by myself, thank you. (I happen to be married, to one of my few friends, and that's OK too). If you don't like these conversations, ask the people not to have them in earshot of you. I don't see what the big deal is with that.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
- jnty 8y ago
  You currently get looked at weird if you say you're interested in trains or stamp collecting or something. I think this prediction is a bit too optimistic.
  - din-9 8y ago
    Superheroes and fantasy have become mainstream over the last few decades. Things do change.
    - close04 8y ago
      The 2 topics you mentioned simply didn't enjoy a general audience. But the people who did enjoy them did so relatively out in the open. I can't think of a time in recent history when any weird sex fetish was openly discuss the weirder fetishes.
      - drsim 8y ago
        I object to the word 'weird' here but I get your point. A time that comes to mind is Fifty Shades of Grey bringing sadomasochism into popular culture and discussion.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        dpark 8y ago
        Sadomasochism has been in the public eye for a long time. Fifty shades of gray made it popular to carry a book about it on the bus, but this was absolutely not an unrecognized fetish prior. It was (and is) one of the more openly discussed kinks.
        close04 8y ago
        If I called them “normal” my comment wouldn’t have made sense. “Perceived as weird by society” maybe?
        apocalypstyx 8y ago
throwaway928337 8y ago
> I would definitely not want to talk openly about sex with random people. I wouldn't discuss my sex life with random people either. But my wife and I have some close friends who are obviously having serious issues because the woman involved always ends up crying about it when we've all had one too many to drink. Unfortunately she won't discuss it at all when sober, which is a real shame as they're such a fantastic couple otherwise and we do desperately want them to work it out. At the very least there could be something very normal going on that we could reassure them about and help them get over any anxiety that might be caused as a result. Unfortunately these things aren't really discussed between friends and so she has to suffer in silence or use alcohol to deal with her problems. [Posting under a throwaway as IRL friends know my username and could find this.]
kzcqt 8y ago
Yeah, I'm not going to say that I consider sex to be disgusting or anything like that, but it's like taking a shit: I know everybody does it but I don't want to hear how, I don't want to imagine it or think of it, thank you very much. If everybody kept their sexual lives to themselves there would be no talk about what fetishes are degenerate simply because nobody would know what your fetishes are.
- tsukurimashou 8y ago
  Sorry, I don't mean I consider sex to be disgusting, I consider hearing about people I don't care having sex disgusting. I think sex is wonderful but personal. I feel most people think like that: No talking openly about sex = being shy / narrow minded
- saiya-jin 8y ago
  Equating taking a dump to the strongest social bond we form in our lives, and for most defines us and our lives more than anything else is... poor choice of words to be polite, very very polite. Christianity had caused a millenia-lasting trauma on western civilization due to its views on sexuality as something sinful and necessary evil, and those views are unfortunately still part of our society to large extent. It will still take a few more generations to undo what has been done, if we keep the current course. By no mean I do advocate for some extroverty discussion about everything with everybody, I don't get why people immediately get this knee-jerk reactions and think only in extremes, but some healthy middle ground would benefit us all. Actually I get it, it comes from our messed-up legacy from religions. Discussion about healthy sex life, what it means to live good life, about death etc. should be definitely part of upbringing. There wouldn't be these clueless masses of teenagers/young adults most of us were part of sometime in our lives.
  - kzcqt 8y ago
    Since it's something private which I consider to be uncouth, I don't want to hear about it. I don't want to think about penises, vaginas, butts, etc. It's just disgusting. What's so hard about that? Equating having sex with what is a completely normal bodily function we have to do once a day was indeed a bad choice of words. So according to your way of seeing things we should be openly talking about how we fuck, how I'd like to fuck you, how I got fucked by that guy the other day. No thank you. Keep it to yourself. There's no middle ground. What would the middle ground look like? I want to put my pee pee in your poo poo?
wesammikhail 8y ago
> but I feel like you'd get less freedom in your sexual life if everybody was talking openly about it. Part of why I think that way is: people have weird fetishes for example, you could think in a society where you can talk openly about sex and you sexual life you could talk about your weird fetish, but I don't think that's the case, only "popular" fetishes / sexual preferences would be discussed, and "weird" fetishes / sexual preferences would be seen as degenerate. In Chuck Rhoades words: "... At best, maybe on the way you tell someone who you really are. And maybe they like it. And maybe you feel just a little bit more comfortable in your own skin, as I finally do in mine!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qgvfC1hJkY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qgvfC1hJkY
stared 8y ago
As a society, we should talk about sex. Otherwise, it is something between a hidden topic and a fuel for inappropriate jokes. With the taboo mindset, it is hard to tackle problems (lack of sexual education, mental and physical problems, miscommunication, consent, boundaries, etc) in a meaningful way. I support sex-positivity. It does not require one to like it (I know asexual sex-positive feminists), but to believe that all consensual, in-good-faith practices are fine. We may not be interested in them at all, or personally find them repealing, but it shouldn't be different from not liking a particular food. Vide "10 things sex-positivity is not" (https://everydayfeminism.com/2016/08/10-things-sex-positivity-is-not/ https://everydayfeminism.com/2016/08/10-things-sex-positivit...). Among other points: "7. Making Other People Listen to Your Sex Stories." (Which goes both ways, so you don't need to like hearing others' sexual life details.)
- antt 8y ago
  There is a lot more to the human body than sex. It's just the one thing that society is obsessed over. In terms of health outcomes talking about your bowels movement, preferably with photographic evidence, would mean that many types of cancers of the digestive tract would be caught early enough to be treatable. As opposed to the current system where you will more than likely not notice the trace amount of bleeding that are symptomatic to most of them. I have yet to see anyone seriously propose tackling this, even though in terms of death rate all sexually transmitted diseases taken together are only half as deadly as stomach cancer alone.
  - thanatropism 8y ago
    Ever heard of German toilets? I don't know if they're prevalent anymore, but the rather than being preemptively filled with water, the classic German toilet is dry so you can inspect your stool and then flush it with a strong current of water. I've heard one person who migrated to Germany as an adult say it's because German cuisine features all kinds of sausages which can give you stomach parasites. But I might be paraphrasing this story to the point it's inaccurate.
    - 8y ago
distant_hat 8y ago
The problem with this is that there are societies that are already like this and they are not good for a vast majority of people. I come from India where talking about sex is not done and, further, most people are married off by their parents. I have a friend who is going through a divorce because her husband is not interested in sex at all. He thinks it should not be an issue. She broke down at one point and told me that after 5 years of marriage she is still a virgin. He thinks there is nothing wrong with it. His parents are on his side. To me this is an absolutely tragic thing. She has lost 5 years of what could be a joyful exploration of her sexuality and, added to it, has the stigma of being a divorcee. We are sexual creatures, there should be nothing wrong in acknowledging it.
sametmax 8y ago
> Well you see, I would hate to live in a world where it became socially acceptable to talk about human sexuality ... > I think it is a very personal subject, and maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like you'd get less freedom in your sexual life if everybody was talking openly about it. I think this highligh the problem: in our society, sex is something special. It should not be. Sex is like eating. It's a normal, regular part of life. There is nothing special about it. It's nice, it's fun, it's good for you. The fact most people see it differently is a big blocker, and creates so many issues in humanity.
- JoeAltmaier 8y ago
  There's another school that says sex can be much more than eating. To reduce it to a normal activity is cynical. Yes, like pizza, even when its bad, its good. But it can be much more than just 'good'. So go ahead and talk about it like its just tennis or something. I talk about stopping at McD's too. Not very interesting, nothing special.
  - sametmax 8y ago
    Some people think collecting pokemon cards is special. We love to do that. Our kids are special. Ou god is special. Our situation is so special. This separates us, and there is not need for special when the whole universe is already astonishing in every ways. It's not cynical, to call it cynical is just comming from the point of view of jugement. I would not juge breathing, why the hell would I juge sex ? Seen a thing for a simple, enjoyable part of life is the very opposite of cynical. It's inclusive. It's embracing existance. It's also sane to not take things too seriously. Life has enough challenge to not had artificial difficulties.
    - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
      I guess some folks have never experienced what it can be, then. To only see it as a simple, enjoyable part of life (like pokemon) diminishes what it can be by orders of magnitude. But go ahead, continue sipping from the cup of life! That's all it will be for some folks I guess.
kuzehanka 8y ago
> I don't think that's the case, only "popular" fetishes / sexual preferences would be discussed, and "weird" fetishes / sexual preferences would be seen as degenerate. This is not unique to sexual preferences. Anything at all has an overton window and even permissive societies shun views that fall outside that. There's this whole pop culture theme of 'be brave and be yourself' going around, and it's bullshit, because what it really means is 'be yourself as long as you're typical'. People who dare to be themselves and expose uncommon views or preferences are shunned every day.
- scriptkiddy 8y ago
  I somewhat agree to this. I'm a Socialist. I have my own views on the subject that fall out of line with traditional socialism, but I still believe in cooperative society over competitive society. As a United States citizen, I feel like the moment political preferences are brought up I have to duck out of the conversation or risk being judged very harshly. I've been in situations where I've made my leanings known to a group made up of liberals and conservatives arguing with one another who then immediately band together and try to bash me on how stupid I am for believing in a pipe dream. It's ridiculous. That said, I have definitely met more tolerant people who are actually willing to have legitimate discussions on the topic. In the U.S., Socialism is a dirty word; just like sex. I think it really does come down to normalization. If society becomes more open to talking about sex, the effect should start compounding to where it eventually becomes not only something that's OK to discuss, but something that people are expected to discuss. I don't think it will ever really be "elevator conversation", but I think it will be something you can talk about in the open with your friends and acquaintances.
- pizza234 8y ago
  > People who dare to be themselves and expose uncommon views or preferences are shunned every day. This is false, when put it in the big picture - which is necessary. As they say, "Poor people are crazy; rich people are eccentric."; it's not about money; it's about having personality. In this sense, eccentricity ("uncommon views", etc.) is a multiplier. If a person is perceived as a "loser", and is eccentric, they're going to be even more, and ultimately an outcast. If they're instead perceived as a "winner", they're going to be even more winner, and ultimately an icon. Of course part of the big picture is complicated by the surrounding culture, the "taste" in the eccentricity ("gross eccentric" and "racist eccentric" are certainly not good in any case, for example), and so on, but the general principle stands. Note that I'm using the terms loser/winner quite liberally; it's not easy to capture this human aspect.
WhyKill 8y ago
Not everybody has the same values as you.

Erlich_Bachman 8y ago

> but I feel like you'd get less freedom in your sexual life if everybody was talking openly about it. Part of why I think that way is: people have weird fetishes for example, you could think in a society where you can talk openly about sex and you sexual life you could talk about your weird fetish, but I don't think that's the case, only "popular" fetishes / sexual preferences would be discussed, and "weird" fetishes / sexual preferences would be seen as degenerate. Likely exactly the other way around: people would hear other people having weird fetishes, and they would understand that most people have this weird side to them, and they would be more ok with their own weirdness.

tsukurimashou 8y ago
Look at society and political opinions, these days if you're not politically correct you're being shamed and put apart from the rest. Talking about it didn't make people understand that "most people have this weird side of them", on the contrary I don't like porn being mainstream, and I don't want to know how is a fury or not at my office. I don't think you need approval or random people to feel better. Find someone you love, find good friends, if you're lucky have a family. These are the people you want to talk these subjects, not some random coworker or someone you've met 2min ago.
- Broken_Hippo 8y ago
  At least 8 times out of 10, those complaining about "political correctness" are complaining that they are expected to treat others respectfully. Not calling someone by the right gender when they know what the person prefers, for example. I don't think folks should get offended when strangers mess up, but that's another story. Sometimes random people are the best folks to talk to about this stuff. Just like other things, they might mention something you simply never considered before. Besides, you really have no way of knowing how much the coworkers speak, and most aren't talking about this in the first hour of work. Porn being mainstream means that folks don't have to hide the behavior as much and no one will be surprised when they find out their lover, sibling, friend, or so on watches porn. I truly don't want to have a family - I do not want children. I'm female and 40, and I hate folks pushing this stuff on me. There is much more to life than this sort of thing. The goal of life isn't to find love either. I'm OK being by myself, thank you. (I happen to be married, to one of my few friends, and that's OK too). If you don't like these conversations, ask the people not to have them in earshot of you. I don't see what the big deal is with that.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
jnty 8y ago
You currently get looked at weird if you say you're interested in trains or stamp collecting or something. I think this prediction is a bit too optimistic.
- din-9 8y ago
  Superheroes and fantasy have become mainstream over the last few decades. Things do change.
  - close04 8y ago
    The 2 topics you mentioned simply didn't enjoy a general audience. But the people who did enjoy them did so relatively out in the open. I can't think of a time in recent history when any weird sex fetish was openly discuss the weirder fetishes.
    - drsim 8y ago
      I object to the word 'weird' here but I get your point. A time that comes to mind is Fifty Shades of Grey bringing sadomasochism into popular culture and discussion.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - dpark 8y ago
        Sadomasochism has been in the public eye for a long time. Fifty shades of gray made it popular to carry a book about it on the bus, but this was absolutely not an unrecognized fetish prior. It was (and is) one of the more openly discussed kinks.
      - close04 8y ago
        If I called them “normal” my comment wouldn’t have made sense. “Perceived as weird by society” maybe?
      - apocalypstyx 8y ago

throwaway928337 8y ago

> I would definitely not want to talk openly about sex with random people. I wouldn't discuss my sex life with random people either. But my wife and I have some close friends who are obviously having serious issues because the woman involved always ends up crying about it when we've all had one too many to drink. Unfortunately she won't discuss it at all when sober, which is a real shame as they're such a fantastic couple otherwise and we do desperately want them to work it out. At the very least there could be something very normal going on that we could reassure them about and help them get over any anxiety that might be caused as a result. Unfortunately these things aren't really discussed between friends and so she has to suffer in silence or use alcohol to deal with her problems. [Posting under a throwaway as IRL friends know my username and could find this.]

kzcqt 8y ago

Yeah, I'm not going to say that I consider sex to be disgusting or anything like that, but it's like taking a shit: I know everybody does it but I don't want to hear how, I don't want to imagine it or think of it, thank you very much. If everybody kept their sexual lives to themselves there would be no talk about what fetishes are degenerate simply because nobody would know what your fetishes are.

tsukurimashou 8y ago
Sorry, I don't mean I consider sex to be disgusting, I consider hearing about people I don't care having sex disgusting. I think sex is wonderful but personal. I feel most people think like that: No talking openly about sex = being shy / narrow minded
saiya-jin 8y ago
Equating taking a dump to the strongest social bond we form in our lives, and for most defines us and our lives more than anything else is... poor choice of words to be polite, very very polite. Christianity had caused a millenia-lasting trauma on western civilization due to its views on sexuality as something sinful and necessary evil, and those views are unfortunately still part of our society to large extent. It will still take a few more generations to undo what has been done, if we keep the current course. By no mean I do advocate for some extroverty discussion about everything with everybody, I don't get why people immediately get this knee-jerk reactions and think only in extremes, but some healthy middle ground would benefit us all. Actually I get it, it comes from our messed-up legacy from religions. Discussion about healthy sex life, what it means to live good life, about death etc. should be definitely part of upbringing. There wouldn't be these clueless masses of teenagers/young adults most of us were part of sometime in our lives.
- kzcqt 8y ago
  Since it's something private which I consider to be uncouth, I don't want to hear about it. I don't want to think about penises, vaginas, butts, etc. It's just disgusting. What's so hard about that? Equating having sex with what is a completely normal bodily function we have to do once a day was indeed a bad choice of words. So according to your way of seeing things we should be openly talking about how we fuck, how I'd like to fuck you, how I got fucked by that guy the other day. No thank you. Keep it to yourself. There's no middle ground. What would the middle ground look like? I want to put my pee pee in your poo poo?

wesammikhail 8y ago

> but I feel like you'd get less freedom in your sexual life if everybody was talking openly about it. Part of why I think that way is: people have weird fetishes for example, you could think in a society where you can talk openly about sex and you sexual life you could talk about your weird fetish, but I don't think that's the case, only "popular" fetishes / sexual preferences would be discussed, and "weird" fetishes / sexual preferences would be seen as degenerate. In Chuck Rhoades words: "... At best, maybe on the way you tell someone who you really are. And maybe they like it. And maybe you feel just a little bit more comfortable in your own skin, as I finally do in mine!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qgvfC1hJkY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qgvfC1hJkY

stared 8y ago

As a society, we should talk about sex. Otherwise, it is something between a hidden topic and a fuel for inappropriate jokes. With the taboo mindset, it is hard to tackle problems (lack of sexual education, mental and physical problems, miscommunication, consent, boundaries, etc) in a meaningful way. I support sex-positivity. It does not require one to like it (I know asexual sex-positive feminists), but to believe that all consensual, in-good-faith practices are fine. We may not be interested in them at all, or personally find them repealing, but it shouldn't be different from not liking a particular food. Vide "10 things sex-positivity is not" (https://everydayfeminism.com/2016/08/10-things-sex-positivity-is-not/ https://everydayfeminism.com/2016/08/10-things-sex-positivit...). Among other points: "7. Making Other People Listen to Your Sex Stories." (Which goes both ways, so you don't need to like hearing others' sexual life details.)

antt 8y ago
There is a lot more to the human body than sex. It's just the one thing that society is obsessed over. In terms of health outcomes talking about your bowels movement, preferably with photographic evidence, would mean that many types of cancers of the digestive tract would be caught early enough to be treatable. As opposed to the current system where you will more than likely not notice the trace amount of bleeding that are symptomatic to most of them. I have yet to see anyone seriously propose tackling this, even though in terms of death rate all sexually transmitted diseases taken together are only half as deadly as stomach cancer alone.
- thanatropism 8y ago
  Ever heard of German toilets? I don't know if they're prevalent anymore, but the rather than being preemptively filled with water, the classic German toilet is dry so you can inspect your stool and then flush it with a strong current of water. I've heard one person who migrated to Germany as an adult say it's because German cuisine features all kinds of sausages which can give you stomach parasites. But I might be paraphrasing this story to the point it's inaccurate.
  - 8y ago

distant_hat 8y ago

The problem with this is that there are societies that are already like this and they are not good for a vast majority of people. I come from India where talking about sex is not done and, further, most people are married off by their parents. I have a friend who is going through a divorce because her husband is not interested in sex at all. He thinks it should not be an issue. She broke down at one point and told me that after 5 years of marriage she is still a virgin. He thinks there is nothing wrong with it. His parents are on his side. To me this is an absolutely tragic thing. She has lost 5 years of what could be a joyful exploration of her sexuality and, added to it, has the stigma of being a divorcee. We are sexual creatures, there should be nothing wrong in acknowledging it.

sametmax 8y ago

> Well you see, I would hate to live in a world where it became socially acceptable to talk about human sexuality ... > I think it is a very personal subject, and maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like you'd get less freedom in your sexual life if everybody was talking openly about it. I think this highligh the problem: in our society, sex is something special. It should not be. Sex is like eating. It's a normal, regular part of life. There is nothing special about it. It's nice, it's fun, it's good for you. The fact most people see it differently is a big blocker, and creates so many issues in humanity.

JoeAltmaier 8y ago
There's another school that says sex can be much more than eating. To reduce it to a normal activity is cynical. Yes, like pizza, even when its bad, its good. But it can be much more than just 'good'. So go ahead and talk about it like its just tennis or something. I talk about stopping at McD's too. Not very interesting, nothing special.
- sametmax 8y ago
  Some people think collecting pokemon cards is special. We love to do that. Our kids are special. Ou god is special. Our situation is so special. This separates us, and there is not need for special when the whole universe is already astonishing in every ways. It's not cynical, to call it cynical is just comming from the point of view of jugement. I would not juge breathing, why the hell would I juge sex ? Seen a thing for a simple, enjoyable part of life is the very opposite of cynical. It's inclusive. It's embracing existance. It's also sane to not take things too seriously. Life has enough challenge to not had artificial difficulties.
  - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
    I guess some folks have never experienced what it can be, then. To only see it as a simple, enjoyable part of life (like pokemon) diminishes what it can be by orders of magnitude. But go ahead, continue sipping from the cup of life! That's all it will be for some folks I guess.

kuzehanka 8y ago

> I don't think that's the case, only "popular" fetishes / sexual preferences would be discussed, and "weird" fetishes / sexual preferences would be seen as degenerate. This is not unique to sexual preferences. Anything at all has an overton window and even permissive societies shun views that fall outside that. There's this whole pop culture theme of 'be brave and be yourself' going around, and it's bullshit, because what it really means is 'be yourself as long as you're typical'. People who dare to be themselves and expose uncommon views or preferences are shunned every day.

scriptkiddy 8y ago
I somewhat agree to this. I'm a Socialist. I have my own views on the subject that fall out of line with traditional socialism, but I still believe in cooperative society over competitive society. As a United States citizen, I feel like the moment political preferences are brought up I have to duck out of the conversation or risk being judged very harshly. I've been in situations where I've made my leanings known to a group made up of liberals and conservatives arguing with one another who then immediately band together and try to bash me on how stupid I am for believing in a pipe dream. It's ridiculous. That said, I have definitely met more tolerant people who are actually willing to have legitimate discussions on the topic. In the U.S., Socialism is a dirty word; just like sex. I think it really does come down to normalization. If society becomes more open to talking about sex, the effect should start compounding to where it eventually becomes not only something that's OK to discuss, but something that people are expected to discuss. I don't think it will ever really be "elevator conversation", but I think it will be something you can talk about in the open with your friends and acquaintances.
pizza234 8y ago
> People who dare to be themselves and expose uncommon views or preferences are shunned every day. This is false, when put it in the big picture - which is necessary. As they say, "Poor people are crazy; rich people are eccentric."; it's not about money; it's about having personality. In this sense, eccentricity ("uncommon views", etc.) is a multiplier. If a person is perceived as a "loser", and is eccentric, they're going to be even more, and ultimately an outcast. If they're instead perceived as a "winner", they're going to be even more winner, and ultimately an icon. Of course part of the big picture is complicated by the surrounding culture, the "taste" in the eccentricity ("gross eccentric" and "racist eccentric" are certainly not good in any case, for example), and so on, but the general principle stands. Note that I'm using the terms loser/winner quite liberally; it's not easy to capture this human aspect.

WhyKill 8y ago

Not everybody has the same values as you.