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>But here are some inconvenient truths: Hardin was a racist, eugenicist, nativist and Islamophobe. He is listed by the Southern Poverty Law Center as a known wh

>But here are some inconvenient truths: Hardin was a racist, eugenicist, nativist and Islamophobe. He is listed by the Southern Poverty Law Center as a known white nationalist. His writings and political activism helped inspire the anti-immigrant hatred spilling across America today. There's a difference between being anti-immigrant and being anti-illegal-immigrant. The media seems to be desperately trying to merge the two together, with calling illegal immigrants undocumented immigrants, or themselves piling the two together, but there is a major difference. I don't doubt people are against immigration entirely, but the way this is phrased seems to playing up to today's immigration talks, which are almost entirely having to do with illegal immigration.

mijamo 8y ago
The policies are targeting illegal immigrants. The hatred on the other hand targets immigrants in general. Remember the comments about mexicans?
- jandrese 8y ago
  The policies also target legal immigrants. It is legal to come to the US seeking asylum from the wars in your home country, but the president spins this as people crossing the border illegally because they aren't going through the immigration process (which isn't open to them).
- merpnderp 8y ago
  Are you referring to the president's comments about MS-13 that have been widely and happily taken out of context? Or the president's comments on the DHS stats for criminals illegally crossing the border, also widely and happily taken out of context?
pj_mukh 8y ago
"There's a difference between being anti-immigrant and being anti-illegal-immigrant." The administration is aggressively fighting both [1]. The media is simply covering in kind. There aren't a nameless "people" who are against legal immigration, its the President's right-hand man. [1] https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/08/stephen-miller-white-house-green-cards.html https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/08/stephen-miller-w...
JamilD 8y ago
Not exclusively. There has been a lot of conversation about ending “chain migration”, which is legal migration based on family connections, as well as eliminating the diversity visa. Today’s immigration talks do center around illegal immigration, but it’s wrong to say that occupies it “almost entirely”.
BurningFrog 8y ago
Southern Poverty Law Center exposed: https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-reckoning-of-morris-dees-and-the-southern-poverty-law-center https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-reckoning-of-mo...
skybrian 8y ago
I guess we're not seeing the same memes on Facebook. There actually are difficult decisions to be made about immigration, but this overshadowed by seeing the worst simplistic arguments.
- fiblye 8y ago
  I’d hope nobody thinks Facebook memes are in any way representative of real life. They’re made by people on political extremes. Almost nobody anywhere near the middle is going to air out their political beliefs to the world.
  - skybrian 8y ago
    They are reshared by perfectly ordinary people, I'm afraid. Former schoolmates and relatives. Though, I expect most wouldn't actually act in it.
rectang 8y ago
> I don't doubt people are against immigration entirely People like Garret Hardin. https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/garrett-hardin https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/indi... "My position is that this idea of a multiethnic society is a disaster. That's what we've got in Central Europe, and in Central Africa. A multiethnic society is insanity. I think we should restrict immigration for that reason." — Interview with The Social Contract, 1997
geephroh 8y ago
Funny that there isn't much vitriol directed at Canadians who overstay their visas, despite the fact that they represented the top slot in DHS's own data.[1][2] [1] https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Canadians-top-the-list-of-visitors-overstaying-13150776.php https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/... [2] https://www.dhs.gov/news/2018/08/07/dhs-releases-fiscal-year-2017-entryexit-overstay-report https://www.dhs.gov/news/2018/08/07/dhs-releases-fiscal-year...
- ApolloFortyNine 8y ago
  That's for overstaying a visa. A large number of illegal immigrants simply arrive illegally. Page 5 in this document shows numbers, with Mexico at the top. [1] And here is another source showing almost the same numbers (i.e, Canada nowhere in site). [2] [1] https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/18_1214_PLCY_pops-est-report.pdf https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/18_1214... [2] https://www.migrationpolicy.org/data/unauthorized-immigrant-population/state/US https://www.migrationpolicy.org/data/unauthorized-immigrant-...
lumberjack 8y ago
>There's a difference between being anti-immigrant and being anti-illegal-immigrant. I used to think that too. I don't anymore. People are anti-immigrant. The law determines whether the immigrant is legal or not, but that does not matter to the anti-immigrant. Let us be generous and say the anti-immigrant is so because of economic reasons, depression of wages and what not. Then does it matter that the immigrant is here legally? No. He is nonetheless contributing to the depression of wages (ex. H1-b). And then maybe if the economy is super healthy and there is labour shortage, would it then matter if the now desired immigrant is legal or not? No. People are anti-immigrant because they see immigrants are others, as competition who has no right to compete with them, or similarly, they seem them as another people encroaching on their territory. Issues of legality concern the state but they do not concern the individual anti-immigrant.
- bkohlmann 8y ago
  Some people are anti-immigrant. Many others are anti-illegal immigrant, including myself. I favor very liberal immigration laws since immigrants have immeasurably bolstered American culture and society. Asylum seekers should be welcomed with open arms, and their claims should be verified to preserve the integrity of the asylum system. We as a nation have the inherent right to control our borders as a matter of democratic policy (as all other nations do). There are legitimate national security (and economic) concerns with small numbers of those who would do harm to our country. The alternative to reasonable restrictions on immigration is open borders, which I think would lead to poor outcomes.
- ApolloFortyNine 8y ago
  ...No? Everything you said remains accurate even if you replace immigrants with illegal immigrants. Particularly your entire last paragraph is what people have an issue with illegal immigrants for, and why a large number of legal immigrants/H1-bs have issues with illegal immigrants. Did you know it can take as long as 15 years for an H1-b to get a green card? Did you know an H1-b can have their application rejected and then have to return home? >People are anti-immigrant because they see immigrants are others, as competition who has no right to compete with them, or similarly, they seem them as another people encroaching on their territory. Issues of legality concern the state but they do not concern the individual anti-immigrant.
panarky 8y ago
There may be a difference between anti-Zionists and anti-Semites, but almost always they're the same people. There may be a difference between nationalists and white nationalists, but almost always they're the same people. There may be a difference between being anti-immigrant and being anti-illegal-immigrant, but almost always they're the same people.

mijamo 8y ago

The policies are targeting illegal immigrants. The hatred on the other hand targets immigrants in general. Remember the comments about mexicans?

jandrese 8y ago
The policies also target legal immigrants. It is legal to come to the US seeking asylum from the wars in your home country, but the president spins this as people crossing the border illegally because they aren't going through the immigration process (which isn't open to them).
merpnderp 8y ago
Are you referring to the president's comments about MS-13 that have been widely and happily taken out of context? Or the president's comments on the DHS stats for criminals illegally crossing the border, also widely and happily taken out of context?

pj_mukh 8y ago

"There's a difference between being anti-immigrant and being anti-illegal-immigrant." The administration is aggressively fighting both [1]. The media is simply covering in kind. There aren't a nameless "people" who are against legal immigration, its the President's right-hand man. [1] https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/08/stephen-miller-white-house-green-cards.html https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/08/stephen-miller-w...

JamilD 8y ago

Not exclusively. There has been a lot of conversation about ending “chain migration”, which is legal migration based on family connections, as well as eliminating the diversity visa. Today’s immigration talks do center around illegal immigration, but it’s wrong to say that occupies it “almost entirely”.

BurningFrog 8y ago

Southern Poverty Law Center exposed: https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-reckoning-of-morris-dees-and-the-southern-poverty-law-center https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-reckoning-of-mo...

skybrian 8y ago

I guess we're not seeing the same memes on Facebook. There actually are difficult decisions to be made about immigration, but this overshadowed by seeing the worst simplistic arguments.

fiblye 8y ago
I’d hope nobody thinks Facebook memes are in any way representative of real life. They’re made by people on political extremes. Almost nobody anywhere near the middle is going to air out their political beliefs to the world.
- skybrian 8y ago
  They are reshared by perfectly ordinary people, I'm afraid. Former schoolmates and relatives. Though, I expect most wouldn't actually act in it.

rectang 8y ago

> I don't doubt people are against immigration entirely People like Garret Hardin. https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/garrett-hardin https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/indi... "My position is that this idea of a multiethnic society is a disaster. That's what we've got in Central Europe, and in Central Africa. A multiethnic society is insanity. I think we should restrict immigration for that reason." — Interview with The Social Contract, 1997

geephroh 8y ago

Funny that there isn't much vitriol directed at Canadians who overstay their visas, despite the fact that they represented the top slot in DHS's own data.[1][2] [1] https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Canadians-top-the-list-of-visitors-overstaying-13150776.php https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/... [2] https://www.dhs.gov/news/2018/08/07/dhs-releases-fiscal-year-2017-entryexit-overstay-report https://www.dhs.gov/news/2018/08/07/dhs-releases-fiscal-year...

ApolloFortyNine 8y ago
That's for overstaying a visa. A large number of illegal immigrants simply arrive illegally. Page 5 in this document shows numbers, with Mexico at the top. [1] And here is another source showing almost the same numbers (i.e, Canada nowhere in site). [2] [1] https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/18_1214_PLCY_pops-est-report.pdf https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/18_1214... [2] https://www.migrationpolicy.org/data/unauthorized-immigrant-population/state/US https://www.migrationpolicy.org/data/unauthorized-immigrant-...

lumberjack 8y ago

>There's a difference between being anti-immigrant and being anti-illegal-immigrant. I used to think that too. I don't anymore. People are anti-immigrant. The law determines whether the immigrant is legal or not, but that does not matter to the anti-immigrant. Let us be generous and say the anti-immigrant is so because of economic reasons, depression of wages and what not. Then does it matter that the immigrant is here legally? No. He is nonetheless contributing to the depression of wages (ex. H1-b). And then maybe if the economy is super healthy and there is labour shortage, would it then matter if the now desired immigrant is legal or not? No. People are anti-immigrant because they see immigrants are others, as competition who has no right to compete with them, or similarly, they seem them as another people encroaching on their territory. Issues of legality concern the state but they do not concern the individual anti-immigrant.

bkohlmann 8y ago
Some people are anti-immigrant. Many others are anti-illegal immigrant, including myself. I favor very liberal immigration laws since immigrants have immeasurably bolstered American culture and society. Asylum seekers should be welcomed with open arms, and their claims should be verified to preserve the integrity of the asylum system. We as a nation have the inherent right to control our borders as a matter of democratic policy (as all other nations do). There are legitimate national security (and economic) concerns with small numbers of those who would do harm to our country. The alternative to reasonable restrictions on immigration is open borders, which I think would lead to poor outcomes.
ApolloFortyNine 8y ago
...No? Everything you said remains accurate even if you replace immigrants with illegal immigrants. Particularly your entire last paragraph is what people have an issue with illegal immigrants for, and why a large number of legal immigrants/H1-bs have issues with illegal immigrants. Did you know it can take as long as 15 years for an H1-b to get a green card? Did you know an H1-b can have their application rejected and then have to return home? >People are anti-immigrant because they see immigrants are others, as competition who has no right to compete with them, or similarly, they seem them as another people encroaching on their territory. Issues of legality concern the state but they do not concern the individual anti-immigrant.

panarky 8y ago

There may be a difference between anti-Zionists and anti-Semites, but almost always they're the same people. There may be a difference between nationalists and white nationalists, but almost always they're the same people. There may be a difference between being anti-immigrant and being anti-illegal-immigrant, but almost always they're the same people.