6 ms·

I want a phone-sized Windows 10 ARM device that runs desktop-class software such as this version of Firefox when docked (and adapts to mobile capabilities when

by bhauer 8y ago

I want a phone-sized Windows 10 ARM device that runs desktop-class software such as this version of Firefox when docked (and adapts to mobile capabilities when undocked, as a responsive web-app does). Although not Windows, Purism seems the most promising runner in anything like this race today, and I'm hoping more contestants enter the race. In any event, thank you Mozilla for supporting this platform. I hope Microsoft puts some more serious weight behind it.

fhbdukfrh 8y ago
You had your chance with Windows 10 phones loaded with resources and continuum.
wslh 8y ago
I don't think you will see that soon or anytime. Microsoft doesn't have a clue about what a tablet experience should be. Sure, they have OneNote and some specific applications tablet aware but it is not well supported by "alien" and popular applications. For example, the copy and paste in Google Docs under Chrome doesn't work!
- kevingadd 8y ago
  The bad tablet experience on Windows is entirely the fault of app developers, Chrome included. Chrome's HiDPI and touch support on non-mobile are an atrocity and it's entirely their fault. They've gotten a little better lately, at least... In comparison if I use (classic) edge to browse and read on my tablet, it's totally fine. Firefox is relatively okay as well (similar issues though, because it just doesn't get much testing). Having two monitors of different DPIs makes it especially obvious how bad most apps are at DPI. The good ones stand out to a dramatic extent. DPI is a difficult thing to implement, but Win9x has had tooling and support for it since Windows 10 and they improve it with every release. When I implement support in my apps it really doesn't take that much effort, just forethought. For one example: Chrome's scrollbars and other widgets are utterly atrocious on touch (even on Android it's kind of bad). The standard Win32 scrollbars and other widgets can have all their sizes manually adjusted in the registry, and by default many of them will automatically adjust when you're in touch mode. I was easily able to make scrollbars bigger across literally everything except Chrome.
  - wslh 8y ago
    > The bad tablet experience on Windows is entirely the fault of app developers I don't think so. Microsoft should make easier to develop for tablet mode if they want adoption, the DPI issues happen also in Microsoft applications! The Win32 APIs are a legacy mess and Microsoft has a long tradition in delivering lot of frameworks which ends in failure (WPF, Silverlight, etc). BTW, Google Docs copy & paste in tablet mode doesn't work in Firefox either.
ocdtrekkie 8y ago
This is also in the news this morning: They've got rudimentary radio support working on the Lumia 950 running Windows 10 on ARM. https://mspoweruser.com/breakthrough-for-windows-10-for-arm-on-the-lumia-950/ https://mspoweruser.com/breakthrough-for-windows-10-for-arm-... Unfortunately, Microsoft will not likely reenter this arena or support phones with Windows in any official capacity, the current direction from Satya appears to be to retreat from every competitive market and cede all standards to El Goog. Microsoft promotes Android, is building a browser based on Chromium, and is abandoning Cortana. Best hope for this would be a third party building an ultraportable themselves and writing their own phone support.
- e1ven 8y ago
  It makes some short-term sense. It seems like they're focusing on the enterprise element of their business, which is what's making more money, has fewer players to work with, etc. I'd imagine they see their future closer to HP than Apple.
  - ocdtrekkie 8y ago
    Oh, sure, Satya's strategy has done wonders for Microsoft's stock value, but Microsoft's constant retreats from various parts of their ecosystem sequentially harms the remaining parts of their ecosystem. The further they retreat, the less people have a reason to build on Microsoft's platforms. And bear in mind, HP is a hardware company, they aren't worried about what platform is running on their hardware. Microsoft is a software company, which is a very different ball game.
    - mey 8y ago
      They are working very hard to be a SaaS and cloud infra company. It's why they are promoting iOS and Android with Office 365.
      - ocdtrekkie 8y ago
        The problem is they're playing in someone else's sandbox that way. Google is a competitor on SaaS and cloud infrastructure, and have the ability to directly integrate their services with Chrome and Android, whereas Microsoft does not.
floatboth 8y ago
How about a OnePlus 6T? :) https://twitter.com/NTAuthority/status/1115339802503786496 https://twitter.com/NTAuthority/status/1115339802503786496 Of course this is a hack, not a usable product, but I wouldn't be surprised if docking would be possible eventually, maybe someone even could hack the Windows 10 Mobile UI to run when undocked… (or design a new mobile UI)
- ntauthority 8y ago
  Mobile was really based on an entirely different Windows system architecture than the "legacy" desktop people all know and love. In addition to that, making handset UX from scratch has shown to cause a lot of fun bad experiences as seen with the (much more mainstream-appealing) open Linux handset attempts. It'd be a great use case to have such a thing for NT-on-ARM, but I don't see this as much more than quick hacks to waste some time, especially with the 855 and 8cx SoCs diverging again so that the brief peak of binary driver sharing being possible is pretty much gone again...
  - swiley 8y ago
    > In addition to that, making handset UX from scratch has shown to cause a lot of fun bad experiences as seen with the (much more mainstream-appealing) open Linux handset attempts. At this point I just want X11 back. At least that worked.
    - metildaa 8y ago
      X11 and Wayland works just fine on Allwinner A series & H series chips as the community has added nearly complete blobless support for everything from the HDMI phy to the Gigabit ethernet controller to the oddball WiFi chips some boards use. Qualcomm and Mediatek are the ones with shitty out of tree Board Support Packages, preventing Android updates and blocking accelerated X11/Wayland from running.
  - floatboth 8y ago
    Wasn't 10 Mobile rewritten to have much more in common with desktop than before?

by bhauer 8y ago

fhbdukfrh 8y ago

You had your chance with Windows 10 phones loaded with resources and continuum.

wslh 8y ago

I don't think you will see that soon or anytime. Microsoft doesn't have a clue about what a tablet experience should be. Sure, they have OneNote and some specific applications tablet aware but it is not well supported by "alien" and popular applications. For example, the copy and paste in Google Docs under Chrome doesn't work!

kevingadd 8y ago
The bad tablet experience on Windows is entirely the fault of app developers, Chrome included. Chrome's HiDPI and touch support on non-mobile are an atrocity and it's entirely their fault. They've gotten a little better lately, at least... In comparison if I use (classic) edge to browse and read on my tablet, it's totally fine. Firefox is relatively okay as well (similar issues though, because it just doesn't get much testing). Having two monitors of different DPIs makes it especially obvious how bad most apps are at DPI. The good ones stand out to a dramatic extent. DPI is a difficult thing to implement, but Win9x has had tooling and support for it since Windows 10 and they improve it with every release. When I implement support in my apps it really doesn't take that much effort, just forethought. For one example: Chrome's scrollbars and other widgets are utterly atrocious on touch (even on Android it's kind of bad). The standard Win32 scrollbars and other widgets can have all their sizes manually adjusted in the registry, and by default many of them will automatically adjust when you're in touch mode. I was easily able to make scrollbars bigger across literally everything except Chrome.
- wslh 8y ago
  > The bad tablet experience on Windows is entirely the fault of app developers I don't think so. Microsoft should make easier to develop for tablet mode if they want adoption, the DPI issues happen also in Microsoft applications! The Win32 APIs are a legacy mess and Microsoft has a long tradition in delivering lot of frameworks which ends in failure (WPF, Silverlight, etc). BTW, Google Docs copy & paste in tablet mode doesn't work in Firefox either.

ocdtrekkie 8y ago

This is also in the news this morning: They've got rudimentary radio support working on the Lumia 950 running Windows 10 on ARM. https://mspoweruser.com/breakthrough-for-windows-10-for-arm-on-the-lumia-950/ https://mspoweruser.com/breakthrough-for-windows-10-for-arm-... Unfortunately, Microsoft will not likely reenter this arena or support phones with Windows in any official capacity, the current direction from Satya appears to be to retreat from every competitive market and cede all standards to El Goog. Microsoft promotes Android, is building a browser based on Chromium, and is abandoning Cortana. Best hope for this would be a third party building an ultraportable themselves and writing their own phone support.

e1ven 8y ago
It makes some short-term sense. It seems like they're focusing on the enterprise element of their business, which is what's making more money, has fewer players to work with, etc. I'd imagine they see their future closer to HP than Apple.
- ocdtrekkie 8y ago
  Oh, sure, Satya's strategy has done wonders for Microsoft's stock value, but Microsoft's constant retreats from various parts of their ecosystem sequentially harms the remaining parts of their ecosystem. The further they retreat, the less people have a reason to build on Microsoft's platforms. And bear in mind, HP is a hardware company, they aren't worried about what platform is running on their hardware. Microsoft is a software company, which is a very different ball game.
  - mey 8y ago
    They are working very hard to be a SaaS and cloud infra company. It's why they are promoting iOS and Android with Office 365.
    - ocdtrekkie 8y ago
      The problem is they're playing in someone else's sandbox that way. Google is a competitor on SaaS and cloud infrastructure, and have the ability to directly integrate their services with Chrome and Android, whereas Microsoft does not.

floatboth 8y ago

How about a OnePlus 6T? :) https://twitter.com/NTAuthority/status/1115339802503786496 https://twitter.com/NTAuthority/status/1115339802503786496 Of course this is a hack, not a usable product, but I wouldn't be surprised if docking would be possible eventually, maybe someone even could hack the Windows 10 Mobile UI to run when undocked… (or design a new mobile UI)

ntauthority 8y ago
Mobile was really based on an entirely different Windows system architecture than the "legacy" desktop people all know and love. In addition to that, making handset UX from scratch has shown to cause a lot of fun bad experiences as seen with the (much more mainstream-appealing) open Linux handset attempts. It'd be a great use case to have such a thing for NT-on-ARM, but I don't see this as much more than quick hacks to waste some time, especially with the 855 and 8cx SoCs diverging again so that the brief peak of binary driver sharing being possible is pretty much gone again...
- swiley 8y ago
  > In addition to that, making handset UX from scratch has shown to cause a lot of fun bad experiences as seen with the (much more mainstream-appealing) open Linux handset attempts. At this point I just want X11 back. At least that worked.
  - metildaa 8y ago
    X11 and Wayland works just fine on Allwinner A series & H series chips as the community has added nearly complete blobless support for everything from the HDMI phy to the Gigabit ethernet controller to the oddball WiFi chips some boards use. Qualcomm and Mediatek are the ones with shitty out of tree Board Support Packages, preventing Android updates and blocking accelerated X11/Wayland from running.
- floatboth 8y ago
  Wasn't 10 Mobile rewritten to have much more in common with desktop than before?