11 ms·

Hungarian opera singers declaring themselves African-American

49 points by chvik 8y ago

moomin 8y ago
Context: Hungary is under the rule of Viktor Orbán, a nasty piece of work who has impoverished his people, run constant anti-Semitic campaigns and harasses any cultural organization including universities that don't follow his culture-war line.
- throwaway284721 8y ago
  This has nothing whatever to do with this article.
- Maro 8y ago
  I think "impoverished" is too strong a word. I think Orban does more damage in people's mind long-term than economically.
- vixen99 8y ago
  Why is your political rant on HN? Plenty of other places to air opinionated views.
  - moomin 8y ago
    My question to you would be why is one of Orban’s culture war stunts on Hacker News? This didn’t just happen. Porgy and Bess has been around a long time, and this has literally never been a problem before. Besides which, a) there’s nothing political about opposing fascism b) there’s no rant there, it’s all just facts.
sandworm101 8y ago
When I was at school in the US I had a minor medical procedure. One of the forms required me to list my race. My doctor was Egyptian and having grown up in the middle east myself we joked about whether he qualified as African american or if he could medically identify my race. Race has no medical definitions and worldwide few courts would ever dare tell someone their race. This case is going nowhere. The opera has made a valid artistic point and won't be forced to change the cast. That said, the US is one of the few places where courts remain willing to determine race and/or religious identity. It isn't common but it does come up (wills, immigration/asylum, some issues involving native american tribes, and cases where people have lied on various forms). If this case can find a way into a US court the opera would not win.
- vt100 8y ago
  If the performances only take place in Hungary, it's pretty unlikely that US court has jurisdiction.
  - sandworm101 8y ago
    Gershwin was american. I assume his kids/estate is american. So this involved a contract between a European opera company and US persons regarding a work protected by US copyright law. They could probably file in a US court and a court may well determine that the US is the better place the hear the case. (When between a person and a corporation, US court tend side with the person's location on issues of jurisdiction. If someone is going to get on a plane, they think it easier for the corporation.) It is a possibility.
    - deogeo 8y ago
      > a work protected by US copyright law I don't think this is entirely correct. It's only protected by US law in the US - in all other countries, it's protected by their local laws. That's the reason for international agreements to harmonize copyright between countries, such as the Berne convention.
    - geezerjay 8y ago
      > work protected by US copyright law. Only within the US jurisdiction. US law does not superpose or replace the laws of other jurisdictions.
      - sandworm101 8y ago
        I said the work was protected by US copyright law, not that US copyright law would necessarily be used in the case. That the opera is a US work can be relevant to jurisdiction rather than the case in chief. Copyright would probably not be an issue. This looks like a simple contract dispute, a debate re whether one party is abiding a term in a licensing agreement.
mcv 8y ago
"As per the request of heirs of Gershwin's catalogue, only Afro-American singers are allowed to perform the piece, and maybe this was due to a mistake, but the fact is that the Hungarian Opera was offered a contract last year that did not have the famous "all-black cast" clause, which they ended up going for." The requirement of allowing only Afro-American singers seems unreasonably restrictive if you want it to be performed outside the US. And having an all-black cast is not the same thing. Not all black people are American. Not all black people trace their ancestry to Africa (except in the way all humans eventually do, of course). And not all Africans are black. So mixing up black and Afro-American may usually end up being the same thing when you're in the US, outside the US it becomes a lot more complex. It becomes a requirement to hire people from the US and a ban on local singers who didn't emigrate from the US. There is of course the letter of the rule and the spirit of the rule. The piece is explicitly about black Americans. Does that mean it can't be performed by non-Americans? By people who aren't black? If it turns out there are no black opera singers in Hungary, does this mean Hungarians shouldn't be exposed to this important piece of black culture? It does feel a bit like one of those cases where a totally justified attempt to to justice to an oppressed minority in the US turns into American cultural imperialism once you leave the country. Then again, it is a piece of American culture.
Impossible 8y ago
Not the first to make this claim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Dolezal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Dolezal
magrimu 8y ago
Some extra context from the linked Guardian article: >The opera house was in the news last year when it cancelled 15 performances of the musical Billy Elliot after rightwing media claimed it could “turn children gay”.
intelliderp 8y ago
Sounds like a simple oversight in contract negotiation that the director and some performers decided to turn into a political statement.
0815test 8y ago
Context: this is about an opera by George Gershwin, Porgy and Bess https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porgy_and_Bess https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porgy_and_Bess . Apparently, Gershwin's heirs request that "an African-American cast" be used in performance. This might actually make some sense as the opera itself is a bit divisive towards Black culture, and there is a rather long history of performances by non-African Americans tending to make it even more so. This statement by the opera cast can be seen as a clarification that they did intend to properly respect the work, although one can of course argue about this.
fierarul 8y ago
Weaponized culture.
x86_64Ubuntu 8y ago
Why is this posted on HackerNews? I mean, I know the reason why, but what's the handwavy-low-effort reason that it's here?
Creationer 8y ago
I find these clauses distasteful. What of a requirement that performers be all-white? If we are going to judge people on their merits and form an international community of humanity free of racist restrictions, we go all in.
- scotty79 8y ago
  I wonder if they could just treat this clause as non-existent since in Hungarian law racial discrimination is illegal and binding agreements can't contain illegal clauses.
scotty79 8y ago
"I won't lie but I'm fine with saying meaningless things." - atheist agreeing to become a godfather.
pvaldes 8y ago
Homo sapiens is an african species and the only extant species, so technically all americans are afro-americans and all europeans are afro-europeans. Banning white people from playing black music or representing black culture (or claiming that this is disrespectful for the black people that created it), is as ludicrous as would be banning black people from using light bulbs, microphones, tv, spanish/electric guitars, pianos, cars... invented by white people, therefore "white culture" (and often built by asians).
- joyeuse6701 8y ago
  Not from a Marxist oppressor/oppressed perspective.
- mcv 8y ago
  What's more, I think restricting "black" culture to black people only, carries the risk of keeping it fringe and preventing it from becoming mainstream. Now Porgy & Bess is solidly mainstream of course, and black culture is absolutely a vital part of its context and necessary to understand and appreciate it, and there's absolutely something to be said for ensuring that it won't be separated from that context, but I think it's also possible to have it performed by white Hungarians in a way that does justice to that context, and I certainly think it's important that white Hungarians are able to enjoy it. And then there's also the option of translating it to a different ethnic group in a somewhat comparable situation. Not sure what a good fit would be in Hungary; Roma maybe? Muslim immigrants? That would certainly make it more immediately relevant.
RickJWagner 8y ago
Seems like a clear violation of Gershwin's wishes to me. It's a great work, I imagine Gershwin wanted it to be a gift to the intended recipients. I think it's wrong.

49 points by chvik 8y ago

Context: Hungary is under the rule of Viktor Orbán, a nasty piece of work who has impoverished his people, run constant anti-Semitic campaigns and harasses any cultural organization including universities that don't follow his culture-war line.

throwaway284721 8y ago
This has nothing whatever to do with this article.
Maro 8y ago
I think "impoverished" is too strong a word. I think Orban does more damage in people's mind long-term than economically.
vixen99 8y ago
Why is your political rant on HN? Plenty of other places to air opinionated views.
- moomin 8y ago
  My question to you would be why is one of Orban’s culture war stunts on Hacker News? This didn’t just happen. Porgy and Bess has been around a long time, and this has literally never been a problem before. Besides which, a) there’s nothing political about opposing fascism b) there’s no rant there, it’s all just facts.

sandworm101 8y ago

When I was at school in the US I had a minor medical procedure. One of the forms required me to list my race. My doctor was Egyptian and having grown up in the middle east myself we joked about whether he qualified as African american or if he could medically identify my race. Race has no medical definitions and worldwide few courts would ever dare tell someone their race. This case is going nowhere. The opera has made a valid artistic point and won't be forced to change the cast. That said, the US is one of the few places where courts remain willing to determine race and/or religious identity. It isn't common but it does come up (wills, immigration/asylum, some issues involving native american tribes, and cases where people have lied on various forms). If this case can find a way into a US court the opera would not win.

vt100 8y ago
If the performances only take place in Hungary, it's pretty unlikely that US court has jurisdiction.
- sandworm101 8y ago
  Gershwin was american. I assume his kids/estate is american. So this involved a contract between a European opera company and US persons regarding a work protected by US copyright law. They could probably file in a US court and a court may well determine that the US is the better place the hear the case. (When between a person and a corporation, US court tend side with the person's location on issues of jurisdiction. If someone is going to get on a plane, they think it easier for the corporation.) It is a possibility.
  - deogeo 8y ago
    > a work protected by US copyright law I don't think this is entirely correct. It's only protected by US law in the US - in all other countries, it's protected by their local laws. That's the reason for international agreements to harmonize copyright between countries, such as the Berne convention.
  - geezerjay 8y ago
    > work protected by US copyright law. Only within the US jurisdiction. US law does not superpose or replace the laws of other jurisdictions.
    - sandworm101 8y ago
      I said the work was protected by US copyright law, not that US copyright law would necessarily be used in the case. That the opera is a US work can be relevant to jurisdiction rather than the case in chief. Copyright would probably not be an issue. This looks like a simple contract dispute, a debate re whether one party is abiding a term in a licensing agreement.

mcv 8y ago

"As per the request of heirs of Gershwin's catalogue, only Afro-American singers are allowed to perform the piece, and maybe this was due to a mistake, but the fact is that the Hungarian Opera was offered a contract last year that did not have the famous "all-black cast" clause, which they ended up going for." The requirement of allowing only Afro-American singers seems unreasonably restrictive if you want it to be performed outside the US. And having an all-black cast is not the same thing. Not all black people are American. Not all black people trace their ancestry to Africa (except in the way all humans eventually do, of course). And not all Africans are black. So mixing up black and Afro-American may usually end up being the same thing when you're in the US, outside the US it becomes a lot more complex. It becomes a requirement to hire people from the US and a ban on local singers who didn't emigrate from the US. There is of course the letter of the rule and the spirit of the rule. The piece is explicitly about black Americans. Does that mean it can't be performed by non-Americans? By people who aren't black? If it turns out there are no black opera singers in Hungary, does this mean Hungarians shouldn't be exposed to this important piece of black culture? It does feel a bit like one of those cases where a totally justified attempt to to justice to an oppressed minority in the US turns into American cultural imperialism once you leave the country. Then again, it is a piece of American culture.

Impossible 8y ago

Not the first to make this claim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Dolezal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Dolezal

magrimu 8y ago

Some extra context from the linked Guardian article: >The opera house was in the news last year when it cancelled 15 performances of the musical Billy Elliot after rightwing media claimed it could “turn children gay”.

intelliderp 8y ago

Sounds like a simple oversight in contract negotiation that the director and some performers decided to turn into a political statement.

0815test 8y ago

Context: this is about an opera by George Gershwin, Porgy and Bess https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porgy_and_Bess https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porgy_and_Bess . Apparently, Gershwin's heirs request that "an African-American cast" be used in performance. This might actually make some sense as the opera itself is a bit divisive towards Black culture, and there is a rather long history of performances by non-African Americans tending to make it even more so. This statement by the opera cast can be seen as a clarification that they did intend to properly respect the work, although one can of course argue about this.

fierarul 8y ago

Weaponized culture.

x86_64Ubuntu 8y ago

Why is this posted on HackerNews? I mean, I know the reason why, but what's the handwavy-low-effort reason that it's here?

Creationer 8y ago

I find these clauses distasteful. What of a requirement that performers be all-white? If we are going to judge people on their merits and form an international community of humanity free of racist restrictions, we go all in.

scotty79 8y ago
I wonder if they could just treat this clause as non-existent since in Hungarian law racial discrimination is illegal and binding agreements can't contain illegal clauses.

scotty79 8y ago

"I won't lie but I'm fine with saying meaningless things." - atheist agreeing to become a godfather.

pvaldes 8y ago

Homo sapiens is an african species and the only extant species, so technically all americans are afro-americans and all europeans are afro-europeans. Banning white people from playing black music or representing black culture (or claiming that this is disrespectful for the black people that created it), is as ludicrous as would be banning black people from using light bulbs, microphones, tv, spanish/electric guitars, pianos, cars... invented by white people, therefore "white culture" (and often built by asians).

joyeuse6701 8y ago
Not from a Marxist oppressor/oppressed perspective.
mcv 8y ago
What's more, I think restricting "black" culture to black people only, carries the risk of keeping it fringe and preventing it from becoming mainstream. Now Porgy & Bess is solidly mainstream of course, and black culture is absolutely a vital part of its context and necessary to understand and appreciate it, and there's absolutely something to be said for ensuring that it won't be separated from that context, but I think it's also possible to have it performed by white Hungarians in a way that does justice to that context, and I certainly think it's important that white Hungarians are able to enjoy it. And then there's also the option of translating it to a different ethnic group in a somewhat comparable situation. Not sure what a good fit would be in Hungary; Roma maybe? Muslim immigrants? That would certainly make it more immediately relevant.

RickJWagner 8y ago

Seems like a clear violation of Gershwin's wishes to me. It's a great work, I imagine Gershwin wanted it to be a gift to the intended recipients. I think it's wrong.