5 ms·

I'm not biased anyway but thinking Is it fair to attribute this entire thing to one person leaving out the team of collaborators? Doesn't it sound like what hap

by amrrs 8y ago

I'm not biased anyway but thinking Is it fair to attribute this entire thing to one person leaving out the team of collaborators? Doesn't it sound like what happens with Jobsism? Edit: While I'm being rapidly downvoted, I'd like to clarify that I didn't mean to demean this because it's a female nor any of the feat this research has achieved. My point was only about why is it reported as if individual feat while many of such things are a strong team work. For some other questions - will you say the same about Elon musk - of course i've argued this among my peers and that's exactly why I called it similar to `Jobsism` To Quote: Another recent incident, While AI Godfathers got Turing award, many questioned why this person hasn't got and that person hasn't got. My idea for this comment was a constructive discussion but it took a different spin that my comment is against this woman which definitely not my intention.

antt 8y ago
I'm annoyed because of the breathless coverage. One would see less hyperbole if a dog had done the work. The worst thing is how soul crushing academia is. I left my physics PhD when I actually started talking to my colleagues and seeing my career trajectory. I bailed as soon as I realized I will be working until my 40s on the per hour pay of a fast food employee. I do not see why you want to push women to a field that pays starvation wages, has worse work/life balance than programming and will pretty much require them to put off kids until their late 30s, if ever. But the dying media get their clicks, which is all that matters to them in the end. Regardless of the long term damage they do.
- Angostura 8y ago
  > One would see less hyperbole if a dog had done the work. I think you should take a moment to think about just how offensive that statement is.
  - antt 8y ago
    Yes, the BBC is terrible. I for one wouldn't care if a chihuahua was a co-author on one of my papers, but there will be a whole dog and pony show about it. That's the amazing thing about science it's not about people, it's about ideas. And ideas stand on their own, regardless of the identity politics of the time, be they eugenics or affirmative action.
- akabaka777 8y ago
  why are you equating PhD with money? Why shouldn't a fast food employee be paid the same as you? Is PhD even a job? What is life?
- nurettin 8y ago
  I thought scientists and academicians do it for the heck of it (and have large amount of wealth to inherit anyway) not because they want to get paid more.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- matt4077 8y ago
  It's interesting how you are concerned about your own "career trajectory", yet for women you cite work/life balance and ability to have children. Edit: I just checked this comment from yesterday, where someone faulted Marissa Meyer for outsourcing her domestic work[0]. Funny story: it's also by you! But I guess it's all a coincidence. Plausible deniability, right? [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19620176 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19620176
  - dexen 8y ago
    The keywords are "push" - as in, applying cultural pressure - and "require" - as in, "[work in academia] will pretty much require them to put off kids until their late 30s, if ever". Presenting choices and opening avenues is a laudable thing. Pushing, via cultural means, is the opposite. Especially when certain inconvenient details are consistently glossed over.
  - antt 8y ago
    >I do not see why you want to push women to a field that pays starvation wages, has worse work/life balance than programming and will pretty much require them to put off kids until their late 30s, if ever. Do you notice I put starvation wages first? Probably not, it would require reading what you're replying to. You're welcome to play again of course. Might I direct you to [0] where in I compare male CEOs to chimps and come to the startling conclusion that not only are chimps better but the lack of cocaine habit makes them more cost effective too? [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19620218 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19620218
klohto 8y ago
~I feel bad for the team. I would rather see the whole team praised for the success not just one person that fits the narrative "women in tech".~ People I right, I made an assumption based on the title and not the content.
- threeseed 8y ago
  Nobody is claiming it is a one person effort. Nobody. And whilst she is getting more attention it has not come at the expense of anyone else. And you wonder why women hate to work in IT with comments like yours where you've dismissed her accomplishments simply because she is a "women in tech".
- wastedhours 8y ago
  "Elon Musk single handedly saves the world with electric cars and revolutionises spaces travel" The media have highlighted the lead, she credits the team, and the article outlines the numbers who worked on it.
govg 8y ago
It's a bit of both - she was the lead behind the algorithm used to process the data, so she rightly deserves credit for that aspect (being the first to do something always gets the credit in the research community). At the same time, it's disingenuous to say it would have been impossible without her, there were multiple competing methods that could have pulled this off, and there were large parts of this achievement that had nothing to do with computational photography research (the astronomy / radio physicists teams).
Tade0 8y ago
Yes, and she's the first to acknowledge this: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10213326025523041&id=1170150152&ref=content_filter https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1021332602552304...
robaato 8y ago
From article: But Dr Bouman, now an assistant professor of computing and mathematical sciences at the California Institute of Technology, insisted the team that helped her deserves equal credit. The effort to capture the image, using telescopes in locations ranging from Antarctica to Chile, involved a team of more than 200 scientists. "No one of us could've done it alone," she told CNN. "It came together because of lots of different people from many different backgrounds."
- realradicalwash 8y ago
  i don't think the criticism of "jobsism" is directed at her, but rather at media outlets who are spinning the story this way.
  - reicek 8y ago
    So you attack a brilliant scientist with a post doctorate? You say she doesn't deserve credit for being the cornerstone that allowed this amazing discovery to happen? Already read your coward excuse that you are only attacking the media, don't bother justifying your misogyny and insecurities. Your profile has less than a year, can't be traced to the real you and all/most of what you say is just cheap criticism. From what I see, you are nothing than a mere internet troll that got some attention; an information parasite. Know that you represent the worst of the information age.
throwaway_m73 8y ago
Everyone, from government to education to tech companies really, really, really want more women in STEM. A smart, photogenic woman making a contribution is the real story because it fits that narrative. I don't mean to take away from her contributions and I'm not making value judgments, that's just how I see it.
Traster 8y ago
I'm not sure this will get the suitably nuanced discussion it should on Hacker News, but there's a whole school of discussion about 'Great man theory' view of history.
skilled 8y ago
"Jobsism"..... Wow...
glangdale 8y ago
Focus on an academic superstar at the expense of their team - or a big 'team lead' at a place like Google or Facebook is far from remarkable. Any particular reason that this story stands out for you?
matt4077 8y ago
It's a scientific feat that's ranked in the top 50 HN stories of all time, yet you somehow feel a profile of the central figure is somehow inappropriate? How would you rate "Meet Robert Oppenheimer, father of the bomb"? I'd also love anyone to point me to any similar discussion on Elon Musk and one of his companies.
- amrrs 8y ago
  Clarity: I definitely didn't mean to demean her effort or profile. I'm just pointing out how media outlets are reporting this feat.
black-tea 8y ago
It's because it's a woman.

by amrrs 8y ago

antt 8y ago

I'm annoyed because of the breathless coverage. One would see less hyperbole if a dog had done the work. The worst thing is how soul crushing academia is. I left my physics PhD when I actually started talking to my colleagues and seeing my career trajectory. I bailed as soon as I realized I will be working until my 40s on the per hour pay of a fast food employee. I do not see why you want to push women to a field that pays starvation wages, has worse work/life balance than programming and will pretty much require them to put off kids until their late 30s, if ever. But the dying media get their clicks, which is all that matters to them in the end. Regardless of the long term damage they do.

Angostura 8y ago
> One would see less hyperbole if a dog had done the work. I think you should take a moment to think about just how offensive that statement is.
- antt 8y ago
  Yes, the BBC is terrible. I for one wouldn't care if a chihuahua was a co-author on one of my papers, but there will be a whole dog and pony show about it. That's the amazing thing about science it's not about people, it's about ideas. And ideas stand on their own, regardless of the identity politics of the time, be they eugenics or affirmative action.
akabaka777 8y ago
why are you equating PhD with money? Why shouldn't a fast food employee be paid the same as you? Is PhD even a job? What is life?
nurettin 8y ago
I thought scientists and academicians do it for the heck of it (and have large amount of wealth to inherit anyway) not because they want to get paid more.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
matt4077 8y ago
It's interesting how you are concerned about your own "career trajectory", yet for women you cite work/life balance and ability to have children. Edit: I just checked this comment from yesterday, where someone faulted Marissa Meyer for outsourcing her domestic work[0]. Funny story: it's also by you! But I guess it's all a coincidence. Plausible deniability, right? [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19620176 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19620176
- dexen 8y ago
  The keywords are "push" - as in, applying cultural pressure - and "require" - as in, "[work in academia] will pretty much require them to put off kids until their late 30s, if ever". Presenting choices and opening avenues is a laudable thing. Pushing, via cultural means, is the opposite. Especially when certain inconvenient details are consistently glossed over.
- antt 8y ago
  >I do not see why you want to push women to a field that pays starvation wages, has worse work/life balance than programming and will pretty much require them to put off kids until their late 30s, if ever. Do you notice I put starvation wages first? Probably not, it would require reading what you're replying to. You're welcome to play again of course. Might I direct you to [0] where in I compare male CEOs to chimps and come to the startling conclusion that not only are chimps better but the lack of cocaine habit makes them more cost effective too? [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19620218 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19620218

klohto 8y ago

~I feel bad for the team. I would rather see the whole team praised for the success not just one person that fits the narrative "women in tech".~ People I right, I made an assumption based on the title and not the content.

threeseed 8y ago
Nobody is claiming it is a one person effort. Nobody. And whilst she is getting more attention it has not come at the expense of anyone else. And you wonder why women hate to work in IT with comments like yours where you've dismissed her accomplishments simply because she is a "women in tech".
wastedhours 8y ago
"Elon Musk single handedly saves the world with electric cars and revolutionises spaces travel" The media have highlighted the lead, she credits the team, and the article outlines the numbers who worked on it.

govg 8y ago

It's a bit of both - she was the lead behind the algorithm used to process the data, so she rightly deserves credit for that aspect (being the first to do something always gets the credit in the research community). At the same time, it's disingenuous to say it would have been impossible without her, there were multiple competing methods that could have pulled this off, and there were large parts of this achievement that had nothing to do with computational photography research (the astronomy / radio physicists teams).

Tade0 8y ago

Yes, and she's the first to acknowledge this: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10213326025523041&id=1170150152&ref=content_filter https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1021332602552304...

robaato 8y ago

From article: But Dr Bouman, now an assistant professor of computing and mathematical sciences at the California Institute of Technology, insisted the team that helped her deserves equal credit. The effort to capture the image, using telescopes in locations ranging from Antarctica to Chile, involved a team of more than 200 scientists. "No one of us could've done it alone," she told CNN. "It came together because of lots of different people from many different backgrounds."

realradicalwash 8y ago
i don't think the criticism of "jobsism" is directed at her, but rather at media outlets who are spinning the story this way.
- reicek 8y ago
  So you attack a brilliant scientist with a post doctorate? You say she doesn't deserve credit for being the cornerstone that allowed this amazing discovery to happen? Already read your coward excuse that you are only attacking the media, don't bother justifying your misogyny and insecurities. Your profile has less than a year, can't be traced to the real you and all/most of what you say is just cheap criticism. From what I see, you are nothing than a mere internet troll that got some attention; an information parasite. Know that you represent the worst of the information age.

throwaway_m73 8y ago

Everyone, from government to education to tech companies really, really, really want more women in STEM. A smart, photogenic woman making a contribution is the real story because it fits that narrative. I don't mean to take away from her contributions and I'm not making value judgments, that's just how I see it.

Traster 8y ago

I'm not sure this will get the suitably nuanced discussion it should on Hacker News, but there's a whole school of discussion about 'Great man theory' view of history.

skilled 8y ago

"Jobsism"..... Wow...

glangdale 8y ago

Focus on an academic superstar at the expense of their team - or a big 'team lead' at a place like Google or Facebook is far from remarkable. Any particular reason that this story stands out for you?

matt4077 8y ago

It's a scientific feat that's ranked in the top 50 HN stories of all time, yet you somehow feel a profile of the central figure is somehow inappropriate? How would you rate "Meet Robert Oppenheimer, father of the bomb"? I'd also love anyone to point me to any similar discussion on Elon Musk and one of his companies.

amrrs 8y ago
Clarity: I definitely didn't mean to demean her effort or profile. I'm just pointing out how media outlets are reporting this feat.

black-tea 8y ago

It's because it's a woman.