5 ms·

How does pinball even have enough depth, with such simple controls, to sustain a competitive scene?

by meruru 8y ago

asark 8y ago
As far as depth, it's largely sequences. Most machines past the very early ones have tons and tons of sequences of actions you're trying to take—hit that ramp three times, then drop the ball in that hole over there, then the door opens, put the ball through that hole three times, skill shot, now such-and-such mode starts, complete it, now you've completed the first of eight parts of the machine's "story" or whatever. So you have any of several sequences available at a time, offering different possibilities (advance toward multiball, set up a multiplier or bonus for a later ball or even a later game[!], go for some really high-scoring combo, activate extra ball, one or more "story" lines of actions to complete at any time, and so on). You might go for high score, you might go for "finishing" the story, some personal challenge ruleset. It'll affect what you're trying to do. But it's also a hand-eye coordination game, and one of carefully physically manipulating the machine to bump the ball this way and that, so things don't always go as planned and you're thinking of contingency shots, or just trying to get the ball back under control, or shooting it one place because you need it to be somewhere else to make some other shot. Most machines have some tricks to discover. Intentionally "flub" your plunger shot at the right time on Addams Family to lock a ball for multiball in The Swamp, for instance. Better to wait out some mode to technically complete it rather than trying to do what it wants for extra points, because it requires some risky shots or puts the ball on a part of the table that carries a high risk of a hard-to-stop drain. That kind of thing. Plus stuff you just have to figure out by lore (hold the ball for a bit to stop temporarily stop The Power long enough for one shot on Addams Family, say). Then there's the feel. Every machine's different. Some have great flow (and that might vary by player), some have awesome theme, some have an incredible melding of theme and play—take Black Knight and its sequel, Black Knight 2000, in which you're "dueling" the Black Knight, which is both a fictional robber-knight and the machine itself, which taunts you ("give me your money!"), with the board structured such that you're on the "offense" when the balls on the elevated, upper playfield with a secondary flipper, and "defense" when it's on the lower board and at risk of draining, but that's not explicit, it's just a natural result of the theme and board design coming together. So, for competition: physical skill, thinking on your feet, planning, knowing and having your shot timing down for the particular machine. And you can still have an "on" day or an "off" day, just like anything else. I'd put it up there in complexity with your average competitive FPS, certainly. Shares a lot in common, in fact. Plus, even on machines where the two flipper buttons are the only useful inputs when the ball's in play, they don't always only control flippers. Watch the lights :-)
- MegaDeKay 8y ago
  Nicely written up! What would you say are some of the best tables out there for depth of play along these lines? I hear Addams Family come up a lot, and you mention that and Black Knight as well.
  - joejerryronnie 8y ago
    White Water was my favorite back in highschool!
  - mtnGoat 8y ago
    The newest star wars pin seems to have a lot of sequences, I'm not sure how many but I feel like I find new ones every time I play. Monster Bash, and lord of the rings are pretty in depth too. The latest addition to my collection is from 1976 and I have yet to do all the sequences, which is pretty impressive as it's an EM(electromechanical) machine. Ive spent at least 12 hours trying. Japanese candy arcades are fun to collect and play also.
  - dasil003 8y ago
    Twilight Zone from 1993 was long considered one of the deepest games and it’s still amazing. The new Sterns have much more complex rule sets though, and firmware that is initially sparse and gets refined to add a lot of depth. Probably the deepest and most diverse players game at the moment is Iron Maiden, it was designed by Keith Elwin who is widely regarded as the best pinball player of all time. But just walking up to a game will not reveal the depth to you. I suggest playing a game, the look up a tutorial from Bowen Kerins on YouTube and prepare to have your mind blown (both the rules/strategies and his skills). In fact, if you have the time, first watch Bowen’s tutorial for Star Trek (https://youtu.be/wYZuLK6ShUk https://youtu.be/wYZuLK6ShUk) and then watch Elwin achieve the impossibly difficult final wizard mode “5 Year Mission” (https://youtu.be/3xXkefqUlnw https://youtu.be/3xXkefqUlnw)
  - asark 8y ago
    Addams Family's great. Good middle-difficulty machine. I find the even-better-loved and similarly-laid-out Twilight Zone to be much, much harder, for some reason—I just don't get along with it very well. Some machines are more n00b-friendly than others. Some take it too far and are too easy (Frankenstein) but others hit a good sweet spot. White Water mentioned by another poster down a ways is a decent starter machine—complex enough, plenty to do to keep you busy for a good long while, but not killer-difficult (Black Knight 2000 would... not be a good one to start with). Depending on how the it's tuned it can have a couple "cheap" drains but they're avoidable with good flipper handling—carefully catching certain returns rather than letting them bounce, that sort of thing. Theater of Magic's good. Fun theme, doesn't just love to throw your ball down the drain all the time, tons to do, but you still have to be aiming & making shots or you won't get much done. Medieval Madness has a nice, straightforward, fun theme and set of sequences. It's a bit like Attack from Mars, actually, but I'd call it the less fiddly of the two, if that makes sense.
magicalhippo 8y ago
Technically you could implement chess with a single button per player[1], yet it has plenty of depth and a rich competitive scene, so the simplicity of the control scheme is not a good measure as such I think. That being said I've never heard of competitive pinball before, and it surprised me as well. [1]: Robotic arm traversing the squares sequentially, press button to pick up piece and press again to release.

How does pinball even have enough depth, with such simple controls, to sustain a competitive scene?

by meruru 8y ago

How does pinball even have enough depth, with such simple controls, to sustain a competitive scene?

As far as depth, it's largely sequences. Most machines past the very early ones have tons and tons of sequences of actions you're trying to take—hit that ramp three times, then drop the ball in that hole over there, then the door opens, put the ball through that hole three times, skill shot, now such-and-such mode starts, complete it, now you've completed the first of eight parts of the machine's "story" or whatever. So you have any of several sequences available at a time, offering different possibilities (advance toward multiball, set up a multiplier or bonus for a later ball or even a later game[!], go for some really high-scoring combo, activate extra ball, one or more "story" lines of actions to complete at any time, and so on). You might go for high score, you might go for "finishing" the story, some personal challenge ruleset. It'll affect what you're trying to do. But it's also a hand-eye coordination game, and one of carefully physically manipulating the machine to bump the ball this way and that, so things don't always go as planned and you're thinking of contingency shots, or just trying to get the ball back under control, or shooting it one place because you need it to be somewhere else to make some other shot. Most machines have some tricks to discover. Intentionally "flub" your plunger shot at the right time on Addams Family to lock a ball for multiball in The Swamp, for instance. Better to wait out some mode to technically complete it rather than trying to do what it wants for extra points, because it requires some risky shots or puts the ball on a part of the table that carries a high risk of a hard-to-stop drain. That kind of thing. Plus stuff you just have to figure out by lore (hold the ball for a bit to stop temporarily stop The Power long enough for one shot on Addams Family, say). Then there's the feel. Every machine's different. Some have great flow (and that might vary by player), some have awesome theme, some have an incredible melding of theme and play—take Black Knight and its sequel, Black Knight 2000, in which you're "dueling" the Black Knight, which is both a fictional robber-knight and the machine itself, which taunts you ("give me your money!"), with the board structured such that you're on the "offense" when the balls on the elevated, upper playfield with a secondary flipper, and "defense" when it's on the lower board and at risk of draining, but that's not explicit, it's just a natural result of the theme and board design coming together. So, for competition: physical skill, thinking on your feet, planning, knowing and having your shot timing down for the particular machine. And you can still have an "on" day or an "off" day, just like anything else. I'd put it up there in complexity with your average competitive FPS, certainly. Shares a lot in common, in fact. Plus, even on machines where the two flipper buttons are the only useful inputs when the ball's in play, they don't always only control flippers. Watch the lights :-)

MegaDeKay 8y ago
Nicely written up! What would you say are some of the best tables out there for depth of play along these lines? I hear Addams Family come up a lot, and you mention that and Black Knight as well.
- joejerryronnie 8y ago
  White Water was my favorite back in highschool!
- mtnGoat 8y ago
  The newest star wars pin seems to have a lot of sequences, I'm not sure how many but I feel like I find new ones every time I play. Monster Bash, and lord of the rings are pretty in depth too. The latest addition to my collection is from 1976 and I have yet to do all the sequences, which is pretty impressive as it's an EM(electromechanical) machine. Ive spent at least 12 hours trying. Japanese candy arcades are fun to collect and play also.
- dasil003 8y ago
  Twilight Zone from 1993 was long considered one of the deepest games and it’s still amazing. The new Sterns have much more complex rule sets though, and firmware that is initially sparse and gets refined to add a lot of depth. Probably the deepest and most diverse players game at the moment is Iron Maiden, it was designed by Keith Elwin who is widely regarded as the best pinball player of all time. But just walking up to a game will not reveal the depth to you. I suggest playing a game, the look up a tutorial from Bowen Kerins on YouTube and prepare to have your mind blown (both the rules/strategies and his skills). In fact, if you have the time, first watch Bowen’s tutorial for Star Trek (https://youtu.be/wYZuLK6ShUk https://youtu.be/wYZuLK6ShUk) and then watch Elwin achieve the impossibly difficult final wizard mode “5 Year Mission” (https://youtu.be/3xXkefqUlnw https://youtu.be/3xXkefqUlnw)
- asark 8y ago
  Addams Family's great. Good middle-difficulty machine. I find the even-better-loved and similarly-laid-out Twilight Zone to be much, much harder, for some reason—I just don't get along with it very well. Some machines are more n00b-friendly than others. Some take it too far and are too easy (Frankenstein) but others hit a good sweet spot. White Water mentioned by another poster down a ways is a decent starter machine—complex enough, plenty to do to keep you busy for a good long while, but not killer-difficult (Black Knight 2000 would... not be a good one to start with). Depending on how the it's tuned it can have a couple "cheap" drains but they're avoidable with good flipper handling—carefully catching certain returns rather than letting them bounce, that sort of thing. Theater of Magic's good. Fun theme, doesn't just love to throw your ball down the drain all the time, tons to do, but you still have to be aiming & making shots or you won't get much done. Medieval Madness has a nice, straightforward, fun theme and set of sequences. It's a bit like Attack from Mars, actually, but I'd call it the less fiddly of the two, if that makes sense.

magicalhippo 8y ago

Technically you could implement chess with a single button per player[1], yet it has plenty of depth and a rich competitive scene, so the simplicity of the control scheme is not a good measure as such I think. That being said I've never heard of competitive pinball before, and it surprised me as well. [1]: Robotic arm traversing the squares sequentially, press button to pick up piece and press again to release.