4 ms·

Fascinating. But it seems like the kind of scenario that would be odd for the pilot, no? You nose down, a stall warning goes off, so you nose back up again?

Fascinating. But it seems like the kind of scenario that would be odd for the pilot, no? You nose down, a stall warning goes off, so you nose back up again? That's exactly the opposite of what a pilot would be trained to do, right? I'd imagine in a car, if my vehicle warned me that I was going too fast when I slowed down, my reaction wouldn't be to speed the vehicle back up to avoid the warning...

oliveshell 8y ago
I recall sleep deprivation was found to be a factor in the Air France crash. The pilots weren’t thinking clearly.
- cmurf 8y ago
  The final report says it's impossible to evaluate the level of fatigue as they have no data on their sleep during the stopover. But from the CVR, the report says the crew showed no signs of objective fatigue
chupa-chups 8y ago
Exactly, and this is what caused the crash. The other pilots simply did not think of one of them trying to pitch up. This is well sourced, sadly not on wikipedia. But there are countless threads of real pilots. I guess Air France had some influence.
- foldr 8y ago
  It's not well sourced. It's a speculation in an old Popular Mechanics article published before the official accident report. The official accident report does not identify the sidesticks as a factor in the crash (because they weren't).
  - chupa-chups 8y ago
    https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/539756-af-447-thread-no-12-a-76.html#post9834132 https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/539756-af-447-thread-no-12-a... https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/2012-07-08/final-af447-report-suggests-pilot-slavishly-followed-flight-director-pitch-commands https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/2012-07-08/final-af4... https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/stall-warning-controversy-haunts-af447-inquiry-360336/ https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/stall-warning-con... https://www.quora.com/Why-did-the-pilots-of-AF447-pull-up-in-a-stall https://www.quora.com/Why-did-the-pilots-of-AF447-pull-up-in... And an explanation why bonin did react as he did: https://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com/2015/08/without-warning-the-startle-factor/ https://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com/2015/08/without-warnin... Downvotes are so cool, right? Just post your better informed opinion and enjoy the upvotes. This has the side-effect of not just informing me but others about your more correct opinion.
    - foldr 8y ago
      The general consensus on pilot forums is that the side sticks were not a factor. See e.g. here: http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=772033&start=50#p11139241 http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=772033&start=... https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/14027/sidestick-safety-concern https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/14027/sidestick... The thread you link to explains why the sidesticks are a red herring: >Again, the stick inputs from the PF are very easy to see if you just look at them. You would see that immediately if you sat in an airbus pilot seat. The PNF is going to spend most of his time looking at the instruments. He's hardly any more likely to be looking off to the side at his own control stick than he is to be looking at the other control stick, so linking them would be unlikely to make any difference.
      - chupa-chups 8y ago
        I didn't say anything about sidesticks (in a comment below i did). I don't believe myself that the sidesticks were a real factor in themselves - but if the PM had sensed that PF (bonin) was pulling up he would have reacted earlier.
cco 8y ago
Yes, if memory serves in AirFrance 447 that upon finding out the co-pilot had been pulling up the whole time the other pilot is shocked to hear this and realizes the problem. I remember being really affected by this so I went out and found the transcript: 02:13:40 (Robert) Climb... climb... climb... climb... 02:13:40 (Bonin) But I've had the stick back the whole time! [At last, Bonin tells the others the crucial fact whose import he has so grievously failed to understand himself.] 02:13:42 (Captain) No, no, no… Don’t climb… no, no. 02:13:43 (Robert) Descend, then… Give me the controls… Give me the controls!
- foldr 8y ago
  What you're pasting there is an editorialized quotation of the transcript from an old Popular Mechanics article. The transcript and its English translation are here: https://www.bea.aero/uploads/tx_elyextendttnews/annexe.01_04.pdf https://www.bea.aero/uploads/tx_elyextendttnews/annexe.01_04... https://www.bea.aero/uploads/tx_elyextendttnews/annexe.01.en_03.pdf https://www.bea.aero/uploads/tx_elyextendttnews/annexe.01.en...
auslander 8y ago
> my reaction wouldn't be to speed the vehicle back up to avoid the warning... In car you can see and feel what's going on. In a jet at night, with complex behaviour in 3D, you'll have much less sensory input, close to zero. Hence Instrument flying.

oliveshell 8y ago

I recall sleep deprivation was found to be a factor in the Air France crash. The pilots weren’t thinking clearly.

cmurf 8y ago
The final report says it's impossible to evaluate the level of fatigue as they have no data on their sleep during the stopover. But from the CVR, the report says the crew showed no signs of objective fatigue

chupa-chups 8y ago

Exactly, and this is what caused the crash. The other pilots simply did not think of one of them trying to pitch up. This is well sourced, sadly not on wikipedia. But there are countless threads of real pilots. I guess Air France had some influence.

foldr 8y ago
It's not well sourced. It's a speculation in an old Popular Mechanics article published before the official accident report. The official accident report does not identify the sidesticks as a factor in the crash (because they weren't).
- chupa-chups 8y ago
  https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/539756-af-447-thread-no-12-a-76.html#post9834132 https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/539756-af-447-thread-no-12-a... https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/2012-07-08/final-af447-report-suggests-pilot-slavishly-followed-flight-director-pitch-commands https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/2012-07-08/final-af4... https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/stall-warning-controversy-haunts-af447-inquiry-360336/ https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/stall-warning-con... https://www.quora.com/Why-did-the-pilots-of-AF447-pull-up-in-a-stall https://www.quora.com/Why-did-the-pilots-of-AF447-pull-up-in... And an explanation why bonin did react as he did: https://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com/2015/08/without-warning-the-startle-factor/ https://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com/2015/08/without-warnin... Downvotes are so cool, right? Just post your better informed opinion and enjoy the upvotes. This has the side-effect of not just informing me but others about your more correct opinion.
  - foldr 8y ago
    The general consensus on pilot forums is that the side sticks were not a factor. See e.g. here: http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=772033&start=50#p11139241 http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=772033&start=... https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/14027/sidestick-safety-concern https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/14027/sidestick... The thread you link to explains why the sidesticks are a red herring: >Again, the stick inputs from the PF are very easy to see if you just look at them. You would see that immediately if you sat in an airbus pilot seat. The PNF is going to spend most of his time looking at the instruments. He's hardly any more likely to be looking off to the side at his own control stick than he is to be looking at the other control stick, so linking them would be unlikely to make any difference.
    - chupa-chups 8y ago
      I didn't say anything about sidesticks (in a comment below i did). I don't believe myself that the sidesticks were a real factor in themselves - but if the PM had sensed that PF (bonin) was pulling up he would have reacted earlier.

cco 8y ago

Yes, if memory serves in AirFrance 447 that upon finding out the co-pilot had been pulling up the whole time the other pilot is shocked to hear this and realizes the problem. I remember being really affected by this so I went out and found the transcript: 02:13:40 (Robert) Climb... climb... climb... climb... 02:13:40 (Bonin) But I've had the stick back the whole time! [At last, Bonin tells the others the crucial fact whose import he has so grievously failed to understand himself.] 02:13:42 (Captain) No, no, no… Don’t climb… no, no. 02:13:43 (Robert) Descend, then… Give me the controls… Give me the controls!

foldr 8y ago
What you're pasting there is an editorialized quotation of the transcript from an old Popular Mechanics article. The transcript and its English translation are here: https://www.bea.aero/uploads/tx_elyextendttnews/annexe.01_04.pdf https://www.bea.aero/uploads/tx_elyextendttnews/annexe.01_04... https://www.bea.aero/uploads/tx_elyextendttnews/annexe.01.en_03.pdf https://www.bea.aero/uploads/tx_elyextendttnews/annexe.01.en...

auslander 8y ago

> my reaction wouldn't be to speed the vehicle back up to avoid the warning... In car you can see and feel what's going on. In a jet at night, with complex behaviour in 3D, you'll have much less sensory input, close to zero. Hence Instrument flying.