7 ms·

Ultra-Time-Efficient Exercise Lowers Blood Pressure, Boosts Brain Function

149 points by scottie_m 8y ago

raidicy 8y ago
Are there any consumer grade devices that are safe/recommended?
- sudhirj 8y ago
  Search for "power breathe" on Amazon. Found them by typing in IMST.
- sneak 8y ago
  I just bought one called Powerbreathe on eBay, they seem to have mechanical and electronic ones. Probably can’t hurt, I’ll give it a go. Drop me a line if you have questions, I should have the device in hand in a couple weeks.
- pwython 8y ago
  I'm giving this basic one a shot for $27: https://www.healthproductsforyou.com/p-respironics-threshold-imt-inspiratory-muscle-trainer.html https://www.healthproductsforyou.com/p-respironics-threshold...
kk58 8y ago
Same as bhastrika pranayama exercise in yoga. Except you do it without blowing into a device.
- macawfish 8y ago
  Slight tangent: a few years ago it clicked for me how critical breath is in regulating the pH of the blood. The way you breath directly moderates the balance of oxygen vs. carbon dioxide in your blood, which on a basic level effects its pH. When you hear people talk about drinking alkaline water or eating alkalizing foods... the most direct thing you can do to effect your blood's pH is by learning different ways of breathing and how they make you feel. If you're brave and would like to experience just how powerful your breath is for yourself, try the technique "bioenergetic breathing": https://www.painscience.com/articles/breathing.php https://www.painscience.com/articles/breathing.php
  - logfromblammo 8y ago
    Have you ever measured the pH of your blood, both before and after eating certain foods or performing certain exercises? Animal blood is a buffer system, with normal pH of 7.35 to 7.45 . It takes a lot to push it out of balance. You have the buffer [H+](aq) + [HCO3-](aq) <-> H2CO3(aq) <-> CO2(g) + H2O(l). Lungs remove excess CO2(g), and kidneys remove excess [HCO3-](aq). You also have the buffer [H+](aq) + [H2PO4-](aq) <-> H3PO4(aq), and [H+](aq) + hemoglobin(aq) <-> O2(aq) + hemoglobin(aq). As muscles produce acid, hemoglobin binds the proton and releases oxygen. A healthy body does not need to do anything at all to consciously regulate its pH; actions that can significantly change blood pH can cause alkalosis or acidosis, which are indicative of serious metabolic problems. If you haven't had a blood test that showed blood pH out of the range 7.35 to 7.45 , you never need to worry about your blood pH or blood gases, ever--unless you're a SCUBA diver or astronaut, or someone else that routinely breathes a different mix of gases from normal atmosphere. https://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/coral2.html https://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/coral... https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/controversial-science-news-quackery/alkaline-water-nonsense https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/controversial-science-news... http://www.chem1.com/CQ/ionbunk.html http://www.chem1.com/CQ/ionbunk.html https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Alkaline_diet https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Alkaline_diet
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - macawfish 8y ago
      Try it yourself if you don't believe me... I dare you! Lay down in a comfortable place. Begin breathing deeply and comfortably but quickly, leaving no pauses at the top or bottom of your breaths. Keep a steady rhythm of 1-2 breaths/second. Keep doing this for up to 5 minutes... or as long as you can stand to. Well within 2 minutes your lips and hand muscles will cramp up. That's tetany, and it's a very clear sign of respiratory alkalosis. No pH meter necessary! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_alkalosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_alkalosis You are free to keep going if you can handle the intense and unusual sensations. It will get more intense. Take it as far as you'd like. At some point you may begin to experience some psychological discomfort, so I'd err on the side of caution if you are easily spooked by unfamiliar states of mind. I've experienced quite severe tetany from controlled and deliberate hyperventilation ("bioenergetic breathing"/"round breathing"/"breath of fire"). When I did this exercise, I was involuntarily convulsing as my lips and hands became uncontrollably tensed and misshapen. It's surprisingly easy to do and is an extremely powerful experience. After doing this exercise I felt a profound sense of well-being and relaxation as I laid and stretched in the sun. --- Let me state more clearly my point: eating or drinking a certain way in order to moderate your blood pH is useless if you're not paying attention to your breathing habits. Breathing is an actual way to quickly alter your blood pH. By the way, on the flip side, some people might experience blood acidosis because of hypoventilation: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/hypoventilation https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/... > Hypoventilation in the absence of alkalosis to inhibit ventilatory drive is a primary respiratory problem. This can result from CNS depression caused by trauma or by some drugs that inhibit respiratory drive such as barbiturates. Hypoventilation increases PCO2 and leads to acidosis. There can be no respiratory compensation for a primary respiratory problem. You don't need to be an astronaut or scuba diver to have CNS depression/trauma. I can attest to that personally.
mfkp 8y ago
Site is down for me, mirror: https://outline.com/mYww6T https://outline.com/mYww6T
- scottie_m 8y ago
  It’s still responsive for me, weird. Thanks for offering an alternative to people who need it though!
sudhirj 8y ago
What's a good IMST routine? I take it one could do it well enough by just slightly holding your nostrils together and breathing hard?
- MaysonL 8y ago
  That might foul up your Eustachian tubes or sinuses: probably better to do it through your mouth, holding your lips together.
open-source-ux 8y ago
The device shown in the video is the Powerbreathe K3 breathing trainer. On Amazon US, the Powerbreathe K4 is selling for $499. However, there are lots of more affordable inspiratory muscle training devices from other manufacturers. Has anyone used these devices and what improvements in health, if any, did you notice?
- Skunkleton 8y ago
  This may be naive, but isn't this the moral equivalent of breathing through a straw?
  - mirimir 8y ago
    Moral? I dunno. But effectively, yes.
- logfromblammo 8y ago
  Seems like you could also get tuneable levels of inspiratory resistance with a U-shaped bit of tubing. Put water in the bottom of the U, no more than halfway up, and breathe in through one leg of the U. Your inhalation pulls up the water column until air bubbles can cross the bottom of the U.
  - jedberg 8y ago
    Just don't breathe in the water! That sounds.... dangerous.
all_usernames 8y ago
Just immersing your face in cold water apparently has a similar effect on blood pressure -- with no additional expense. https://www.fasebj.org/doi/abs/10.1096/fasebj.29.1_supplement.993.21 https://www.fasebj.org/doi/abs/10.1096/fasebj.29.1_supplemen...
- JMTQp8lwXL 8y ago
  Maybe for a short term period of time, but probably not long-lasting enough to have a consequential health benefit, unlike exercise. Exercise, when done regularly, permanently lowers blood pressure.
polskibus 8y ago
It's great combined with cold showers. Check out Wim Hof method if you need examples (although breathing and cold training are as old as the hills.)
lotsofpulp 8y ago
How does the device work and what does it do? https://www.powerbreathe.com/powerbreathe-k5 https://www.powerbreathe.com/powerbreathe-k5 On the Powerbreathe website it says >The POWERbreathe K-Series uses Electronic Variable Threshold Resistance Training to overcome this. This type of training offers a tapered loading resistance to match the contraction curve of your own breathing muscles throughout your entire breath. Is it restricting the flow of air so you have to breathe harder?
- mirimir 8y ago
  It's an "inspiratory muscle trainer". That is, it increases resistance breathing in. I can do the same with my lips (or a finger) and make funny noises too :)
0_gravitas 8y ago
Interesting, I've had asthma all of my life, with varying levels of control, I wonder what the knock on effects of that have been, and I wonder if this would be worth giving a shot
aimatt 8y ago
Reminds me of fighters training for MMA wearing gas masks to increase their VO2 Max.
swatkat 8y ago
Looks similar to Kapalabhati and Bhastrika pranayama breathing exercises. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapalabhati https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapalabhati https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhastrika https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhastrika
- war1025 8y ago
  Just looked into this, and it is fairly similar to what I will do sometimes to relax before falling asleep. Basically deep but not too deep breaths in and out and usually around the fifth breath there is a noticeable decrease in tension and I am suddenly very relaxed and able to fall asleep. Didn't read very deeply into the two, so may be completely off the mark. But breathing exercises definitely do help reduce stress and tension, so I can see why they would help with blood pressure.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
metaphyze 8y ago
I wonder if you could get the same benefits by just blowing up a balloon.
LyndsySimon 8y ago
Two things come to mind: The first is that I wonder if this has the opposite effect on people who use CPAPs? About a third of their life their diaphragm isn't needing to exert nearly as much force for them to inhale. The second is that I wonder if this has any effect on people who vape, especially with small sub-ohm units. Many of them have very limited airflow, which seems like it would emulate the effect of this device to some degree.
- ta13531 8y ago
  A friend of mine in med school said they did their autopsy on someone with sleep apnea and the man's diaphragm was unusually thick. I myself have sleep apnea and my allergist was surprised how hard I could blow into her breath measuring thing. Not off the charts but high enough that she noticed. I guess there are other reasons to be on CPAP, but that's my personal datapoint. (Imagine how strong your diaphragm would be if you spent a third of your life breathing through a crushed straw.)
- DenisM 8y ago
  >people who use CPAPs? About a third of their life their diaphragm isn't needing to exert nearly as much force for them to inhale. Most recent advancements in CPAP is to provide as little pressure as possible while still keeping the airway open. Higher air pressure increases discomfort and undermines compliance, and the effect is huge. The pressure never goes up high enough to force the diaphragm to move, sooner the mask will fly off the face.
  - Someone1234 8y ago
    Auto CPAPs are fantastic, they're still under-prescribed by doctors however. Good news is that a lot of patients have figured out you can trivially re-configure a fixed pressure unit to be an Auto CPAP because most CPAPs sold today are both. The great thing about Auto CPAPs is that they use predictive algorithms to figure out when an Apnoea–Hypopnoea will likely occur, ramp pressure up preemptively, and can sometimes avoid the event entirely. A recent software update to Respironics/Philips Auto CPAP in particular had people seeing a lower AHI because the machine was making better predictions and stopping events in their tracks. This directly results in better sleep/better compliance. PS - Obviously don't take medical advice from Hacker News. If you have a high air pressure/a high AHI you may not be suitable for Auto CPAP therapy and could cause harm, talk to your doctor. There's a lot of information/literature out there if you wish to learn more. Right now Auto CPAPs are under-prescribed, but that doesn't mean everyone is a suitable candidate.
modeless 8y ago
Wait, they achieved a 10% reduction in blood pressure in 6 weeks with only a 5 minute daily breathing exercise? That is off the charts great, if true. How have I not heard of this before? The original study with these claims is here: https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article-pdf/39/6/1179/26674049/aasm.39.6.1179.pdf https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article-pdf/39/6/1179/2667404...
keenmaster 8y ago
I was going to buy the Powerbreathe on impulse, but there is a lack of authoritative news on IMST devices. People on running and cyclist forums also don’t seem to be fans of IMST. Perhaps that’s because it provides lower marginal benefit for them. Can anyone with a medical background provide their opinion on the linked study?
ropable 8y ago
As a childhood asthmatic, apparently I got on this training regime early.
xkfm 8y ago
Interestingly enough I bought this what I thought was a scam/sham/illegitimately represented product from Bas Rutten (the O2 Trainer) awhile ago on a lark. It seems like it actually has some merit (at least the idea, most likely not the product).

149 points by scottie_m 8y ago

raidicy 8y ago

Are there any consumer grade devices that are safe/recommended?

sudhirj 8y ago
Search for "power breathe" on Amazon. Found them by typing in IMST.
sneak 8y ago
I just bought one called Powerbreathe on eBay, they seem to have mechanical and electronic ones. Probably can’t hurt, I’ll give it a go. Drop me a line if you have questions, I should have the device in hand in a couple weeks.
pwython 8y ago
I'm giving this basic one a shot for $27: https://www.healthproductsforyou.com/p-respironics-threshold-imt-inspiratory-muscle-trainer.html https://www.healthproductsforyou.com/p-respironics-threshold...

kk58 8y ago

Same as bhastrika pranayama exercise in yoga. Except you do it without blowing into a device.

macawfish 8y ago
Slight tangent: a few years ago it clicked for me how critical breath is in regulating the pH of the blood. The way you breath directly moderates the balance of oxygen vs. carbon dioxide in your blood, which on a basic level effects its pH. When you hear people talk about drinking alkaline water or eating alkalizing foods... the most direct thing you can do to effect your blood's pH is by learning different ways of breathing and how they make you feel. If you're brave and would like to experience just how powerful your breath is for yourself, try the technique "bioenergetic breathing": https://www.painscience.com/articles/breathing.php https://www.painscience.com/articles/breathing.php
- logfromblammo 8y ago
  Have you ever measured the pH of your blood, both before and after eating certain foods or performing certain exercises? Animal blood is a buffer system, with normal pH of 7.35 to 7.45 . It takes a lot to push it out of balance. You have the buffer [H+](aq) + [HCO3-](aq) <-> H2CO3(aq) <-> CO2(g) + H2O(l). Lungs remove excess CO2(g), and kidneys remove excess [HCO3-](aq). You also have the buffer [H+](aq) + [H2PO4-](aq) <-> H3PO4(aq), and [H+](aq) + hemoglobin(aq) <-> O2(aq) + hemoglobin(aq). As muscles produce acid, hemoglobin binds the proton and releases oxygen. A healthy body does not need to do anything at all to consciously regulate its pH; actions that can significantly change blood pH can cause alkalosis or acidosis, which are indicative of serious metabolic problems. If you haven't had a blood test that showed blood pH out of the range 7.35 to 7.45 , you never need to worry about your blood pH or blood gases, ever--unless you're a SCUBA diver or astronaut, or someone else that routinely breathes a different mix of gases from normal atmosphere. https://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/coral2.html https://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/coral... https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/controversial-science-news-quackery/alkaline-water-nonsense https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/controversial-science-news... http://www.chem1.com/CQ/ionbunk.html http://www.chem1.com/CQ/ionbunk.html https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Alkaline_diet https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Alkaline_diet
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - macawfish 8y ago
    Try it yourself if you don't believe me... I dare you! Lay down in a comfortable place. Begin breathing deeply and comfortably but quickly, leaving no pauses at the top or bottom of your breaths. Keep a steady rhythm of 1-2 breaths/second. Keep doing this for up to 5 minutes... or as long as you can stand to. Well within 2 minutes your lips and hand muscles will cramp up. That's tetany, and it's a very clear sign of respiratory alkalosis. No pH meter necessary! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_alkalosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_alkalosis You are free to keep going if you can handle the intense and unusual sensations. It will get more intense. Take it as far as you'd like. At some point you may begin to experience some psychological discomfort, so I'd err on the side of caution if you are easily spooked by unfamiliar states of mind. I've experienced quite severe tetany from controlled and deliberate hyperventilation ("bioenergetic breathing"/"round breathing"/"breath of fire"). When I did this exercise, I was involuntarily convulsing as my lips and hands became uncontrollably tensed and misshapen. It's surprisingly easy to do and is an extremely powerful experience. After doing this exercise I felt a profound sense of well-being and relaxation as I laid and stretched in the sun. --- Let me state more clearly my point: eating or drinking a certain way in order to moderate your blood pH is useless if you're not paying attention to your breathing habits. Breathing is an actual way to quickly alter your blood pH. By the way, on the flip side, some people might experience blood acidosis because of hypoventilation: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/hypoventilation https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/... > Hypoventilation in the absence of alkalosis to inhibit ventilatory drive is a primary respiratory problem. This can result from CNS depression caused by trauma or by some drugs that inhibit respiratory drive such as barbiturates. Hypoventilation increases PCO2 and leads to acidosis. There can be no respiratory compensation for a primary respiratory problem. You don't need to be an astronaut or scuba diver to have CNS depression/trauma. I can attest to that personally.

mfkp 8y ago

Site is down for me, mirror: https://outline.com/mYww6T https://outline.com/mYww6T

scottie_m 8y ago
It’s still responsive for me, weird. Thanks for offering an alternative to people who need it though!

sudhirj 8y ago

What's a good IMST routine? I take it one could do it well enough by just slightly holding your nostrils together and breathing hard?

MaysonL 8y ago
That might foul up your Eustachian tubes or sinuses: probably better to do it through your mouth, holding your lips together.

open-source-ux 8y ago

The device shown in the video is the Powerbreathe K3 breathing trainer. On Amazon US, the Powerbreathe K4 is selling for $499. However, there are lots of more affordable inspiratory muscle training devices from other manufacturers. Has anyone used these devices and what improvements in health, if any, did you notice?

Skunkleton 8y ago
This may be naive, but isn't this the moral equivalent of breathing through a straw?
- mirimir 8y ago
  Moral? I dunno. But effectively, yes.
logfromblammo 8y ago
Seems like you could also get tuneable levels of inspiratory resistance with a U-shaped bit of tubing. Put water in the bottom of the U, no more than halfway up, and breathe in through one leg of the U. Your inhalation pulls up the water column until air bubbles can cross the bottom of the U.
- jedberg 8y ago
  Just don't breathe in the water! That sounds.... dangerous.

all_usernames 8y ago

Just immersing your face in cold water apparently has a similar effect on blood pressure -- with no additional expense. https://www.fasebj.org/doi/abs/10.1096/fasebj.29.1_supplement.993.21 https://www.fasebj.org/doi/abs/10.1096/fasebj.29.1_supplemen...

JMTQp8lwXL 8y ago
Maybe for a short term period of time, but probably not long-lasting enough to have a consequential health benefit, unlike exercise. Exercise, when done regularly, permanently lowers blood pressure.

polskibus 8y ago

It's great combined with cold showers. Check out Wim Hof method if you need examples (although breathing and cold training are as old as the hills.)

lotsofpulp 8y ago

How does the device work and what does it do? https://www.powerbreathe.com/powerbreathe-k5 https://www.powerbreathe.com/powerbreathe-k5 On the Powerbreathe website it says >The POWERbreathe K-Series uses Electronic Variable Threshold Resistance Training to overcome this. This type of training offers a tapered loading resistance to match the contraction curve of your own breathing muscles throughout your entire breath. Is it restricting the flow of air so you have to breathe harder?

mirimir 8y ago
It's an "inspiratory muscle trainer". That is, it increases resistance breathing in. I can do the same with my lips (or a finger) and make funny noises too :)

0_gravitas 8y ago

Interesting, I've had asthma all of my life, with varying levels of control, I wonder what the knock on effects of that have been, and I wonder if this would be worth giving a shot

aimatt 8y ago

Reminds me of fighters training for MMA wearing gas masks to increase their VO2 Max.

swatkat 8y ago

Looks similar to Kapalabhati and Bhastrika pranayama breathing exercises. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapalabhati https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapalabhati https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhastrika https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhastrika

war1025 8y ago
Just looked into this, and it is fairly similar to what I will do sometimes to relax before falling asleep. Basically deep but not too deep breaths in and out and usually around the fifth breath there is a noticeable decrease in tension and I am suddenly very relaxed and able to fall asleep. Didn't read very deeply into the two, so may be completely off the mark. But breathing exercises definitely do help reduce stress and tension, so I can see why they would help with blood pressure.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

metaphyze 8y ago

I wonder if you could get the same benefits by just blowing up a balloon.

LyndsySimon 8y ago

Two things come to mind: The first is that I wonder if this has the opposite effect on people who use CPAPs? About a third of their life their diaphragm isn't needing to exert nearly as much force for them to inhale. The second is that I wonder if this has any effect on people who vape, especially with small sub-ohm units. Many of them have very limited airflow, which seems like it would emulate the effect of this device to some degree.

ta13531 8y ago
A friend of mine in med school said they did their autopsy on someone with sleep apnea and the man's diaphragm was unusually thick. I myself have sleep apnea and my allergist was surprised how hard I could blow into her breath measuring thing. Not off the charts but high enough that she noticed. I guess there are other reasons to be on CPAP, but that's my personal datapoint. (Imagine how strong your diaphragm would be if you spent a third of your life breathing through a crushed straw.)
DenisM 8y ago
>people who use CPAPs? About a third of their life their diaphragm isn't needing to exert nearly as much force for them to inhale. Most recent advancements in CPAP is to provide as little pressure as possible while still keeping the airway open. Higher air pressure increases discomfort and undermines compliance, and the effect is huge. The pressure never goes up high enough to force the diaphragm to move, sooner the mask will fly off the face.
- Someone1234 8y ago
  Auto CPAPs are fantastic, they're still under-prescribed by doctors however. Good news is that a lot of patients have figured out you can trivially re-configure a fixed pressure unit to be an Auto CPAP because most CPAPs sold today are both. The great thing about Auto CPAPs is that they use predictive algorithms to figure out when an Apnoea–Hypopnoea will likely occur, ramp pressure up preemptively, and can sometimes avoid the event entirely. A recent software update to Respironics/Philips Auto CPAP in particular had people seeing a lower AHI because the machine was making better predictions and stopping events in their tracks. This directly results in better sleep/better compliance. PS - Obviously don't take medical advice from Hacker News. If you have a high air pressure/a high AHI you may not be suitable for Auto CPAP therapy and could cause harm, talk to your doctor. There's a lot of information/literature out there if you wish to learn more. Right now Auto CPAPs are under-prescribed, but that doesn't mean everyone is a suitable candidate.

modeless 8y ago

Wait, they achieved a 10% reduction in blood pressure in 6 weeks with only a 5 minute daily breathing exercise? That is off the charts great, if true. How have I not heard of this before? The original study with these claims is here: https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article-pdf/39/6/1179/26674049/aasm.39.6.1179.pdf https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article-pdf/39/6/1179/2667404...

keenmaster 8y ago

I was going to buy the Powerbreathe on impulse, but there is a lack of authoritative news on IMST devices. People on running and cyclist forums also don’t seem to be fans of IMST. Perhaps that’s because it provides lower marginal benefit for them. Can anyone with a medical background provide their opinion on the linked study?

ropable 8y ago

As a childhood asthmatic, apparently I got on this training regime early.

xkfm 8y ago

Interestingly enough I bought this what I thought was a scam/sham/illegitimately represented product from Bas Rutten (the O2 Trainer) awhile ago on a lark. It seems like it actually has some merit (at least the idea, most likely not the product).