5 ms·

SF startup cash comp for engineers is comfortably in the 150k-200k range, and often higher. This is series A, series B stage companies. If you have a few years

SF startup cash comp for engineers is comfortably in the 150k-200k range, and often higher. This is series A, series B stage companies. If you have a few years of experience and are making less than this then I'm please to be able to inform you that you are underpaid. If you have one of those incomes at the higher end, you can do these things in the bay area. If you have more than one then that stuff is not hard at all. Berkeley has pleasant single family homes in a great school district around the $1MM mark. You can absolutely do that on $200k/year. IMO you should for sure be able to reach the mark where this is comfortable financially by the time you're around 30.

geggam 8y ago
You mean people have quit coming in full cash 10-15% over ask for houses in the bay area ? 2 years ago people with standard financing didnt have a chance in hell of buying a house in the Bay
- matthewowen 8y ago
  I know a bunch of people who have bought in this price range with standard financing, and I based the numbers on sale prices.
donaldknuth123 8y ago
You seem to be massively misunderstanding the Bay Area real estate market. Homes are routinely bought in full cash 20% over asking. No average engineers are making those kinds of offers.
ummonk 8y ago
They'll be a lot more expensive by the time some of us turn 30.
deanmoriarty 8y ago
Unless you mean both spouses should earn around 200k and thus bringing in a FAANG-equivalent income of 400k, I really don't know how you could afford what you are saying on a single 150k-200k salary (and perhaps another 50k for your spouse's salary, since not everybody works in tech). After paying for CA taxes, fed taxes, kids' schools, rent, car expenses, 401k contributions, I really don't know how you would come up with the savings necessary for the huge down payment required for a house there. Just last week, a friend of mine got outbid on a ~1.5M house in the East Bay Area because another buyer came in and offered a down payment of $700k (!!), whereas my friend just had a more traditional 20%. Good luck getting to those savings on a 150k startup salary and mostly worthless options. In my experience, and I certainly respect yours, people just need to stop working for startups and go to big corporations, period. And I speak as someone who had a low 7 figure liquidation event from a startup, and I'm still so against startups, because that liquidation event still didn't match the compensation I could have gotten as FAANG all along.
- wolco 8y ago
  Why would it matter 20% or 700k as a seller I get the full amount from the bank.
  - deanmoriarty 8y ago
    I believe the buyer was also slightly more aggressive, i.e. was willing to let the deal close faster than my friend, who rightfully wanted to take his time before getting into the biggest purchase of his life (inspections and such). That, paired with the massive downpayment the buyer was ready to immediately put in earnest money, was enough to convince the seller. Real estate transactions are not always that rational. Also, many folks in the Bay Area just go all cash, and that's obviously much better for the seller since it means very fast closing. But this if off topic, because a person on a 150k startup salary in the Bay Area won't be able to participate in any of these discussions.
  - TuringNYC 8y ago
    Because most offers are "subject to favorable financing" and if the person doesnt get favorable financing, the offer falls thru and the seller ends up holding the housing longer w/o a seller and paying the carry. People will often sell at a lower absolute price (slightly lower) for all-cash offers without the issues of financing. Also, financing can fall thru for silly reasons (eg the bank found some crazy lien from the 1940s) and want it cleared before they offer financing.
- eanzenberg 8y ago
  >>FAANG-equivalent income of 400k LUL dude, I hear this shit being parroted ad-nauseum. The amount of FAANG people that hit this level or more is like, 5-10%. Take a look at the top 5-10% of non-FAANG companies and you'll see those employees are also hitting this mark. There's nothing special about FAANG. I understand lots of FAANG employees parrot this around to make themselves feel better about their life choices.
  - deanmoriarty 8y ago
    According to my experience (and again, that's the only thing I know), that's not even remotely true. When I interviewed a couple years ago, I made sure to interview at FAANG (specifically Facebook, Google, Netflix) and I also interviewed at half dozen big public companies in the same couple months (among which Oracle, Salesforce, Cisco, Juniper, Palo Alto Networks). I didn't interview at any private company (Uber, AirBnB, ...), since I was coming out of the startup world and I wanted liquid compensation. The FAANG offers that came back were all significantly higher than the other ones, and the constant was certainly me (a software engineer with 7 years of experience at the time and a BS + MS in Computer Engineering). All the FAANG offers (luckily I got an offer from all the 3 I interviewed at) were at a total liquid compensation of $~400-450k/y (annualized cash + RSU), and I'm certainly not in the top 10% of their tech workforce, not even remotely close, I come in as a generalist with some ops experience who spent a couple months studying algorithms and data structures. I don't even have an active GitHub profile. All the other non-FAANG tech companies (I got an offer from 4) were at a total liquid compensation of $~220k/y (annualized cash + RSU). The only other companies who matched the FAANG offers were a couple of hedge funds on the East Coast, but I didn't want to relocate and I wanted to keep working for a tech company. In the end, I joined Google. So, I'm just reporting my own personal experience based on the data I directly experienced (I have PDFs of all the offers :-)). Feel free to ask any follow up question, I love educating software engineers on their real market value, since I think many sell themselves too short in this thriving market.
nostrademons 8y ago
You pay for it in commute time, though. I just checked Zillow; the houses that are anywhere within walking distance of BART go for $1.7-$2.8M, with the $1M homes clustered near the freeway. Driving across the Bay Bridge into SF can easily take an hour; hell, I know people who've been stuck on the bridge for over an hour.
- closeparen 8y ago
  For precisely this reason, the most valuable real estate in Berkeley is BART parking. It's also (officially) not for sale at any price. You have to sit on the waitlist for a few years. I'm sure there's a black secondary market somewhere but I haven't found it. BART is looking to eliminate all its parking, so this strategy won't work much longer. (They claim that the parking program doesn't bring in much revenue, but also refuse to charge a market-clearing price!) Maybe the houses away from BART will get a little more affordable and those willing to walk 45 minutes or so will get a break. Or it'll end up like Sunnyvale where most of the "Caltrain" parking is actually provided by the City.
- philsnow 8y ago
  I started a remote job in August (8 months ago) and I've saved about 400 hours of commute time since then. (~2.5 hours / day) x (~20 work days / month) x (8 months) = ~400 hours
- matthewowen 8y ago
  I checked this before I posted to make sure things hadn't changed. Here's an example: https://www.redfin.com/CA/Berkeley/2333-Sacramento-St-94702/home/1245382 https://www.redfin.com/CA/Berkeley/2333-Sacramento-St-94702/... BART is a 20 minute walk, five minute bike ride (and with the weather and topography cycling is a great option).
  - nostrademons 8y ago
    That's still an hour+ commute: 20 minute walk + 5 minute wait + 35 minute BART ride. Plus however long the walk/connection is on the SF side. If you're working at Embarcadero it could be a few minutes shorter; if you're where a bunch of the post-2010 tech companies are clustered at 7th street in SOMA, it's another 25 or so via bus or light rail connection.
defen 8y ago
> Berkeley has pleasant single family homes in a great school district around the $1MM mark. You can absolutely do that on $200k/year. Let's say you make $200k/year and manage to put together a $300k down payment and get a $700k mortgage at 3.8%. Here is the breakdown of your annual spending (using 2018 numbers): $18,500 to 401K $35,930 in federal income tax $10,593 in FICA (Social security and medicare) $13,724 in California income tax Take home after tax + retirement savings: $121,253 Also, remember that the rules have changed and only $10,000 in state, local, and property tax is deductible against federal income. Remaining payments: $39,140 in mortgage payments $10,500 in property tax $1,000 in homeowners insurance $10,000 in car ownership costs (gas, maintenance, insurance, financing or depreciation) $4,000 in utilities (gas, electricity, water, trash, internet) $1,000 for phone That leaves you with $55,613 of "real" annual take home, or $4,634 per month, without counting the cost of food, entertainment, other debt servicing, etc. Certainly not poverty wages, and many people get by with far less, but you'll also spend 2+ hours per day commuting and have a significant fraction of your net worth tied up in a house in an earthquake-prone area.
- opportune 8y ago
  Since we've already accounted for all housing and car payments (btw, your car ownership costs are way too high as a lower bound. I would say an decent $10k car you hold on to for 5 years at a time would have total annual costs closer to $5/year) that doesn't sound bad at all
  - defen 8y ago
    I was using the numbers here: https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/loans/total-cost-owning-car/ https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/loans/total-cost-owning-car/ but you could certainly get it down a bit if you don't mind driving an older car.
    - opportune 8y ago
      15k miles a year is also a lot of miles. I probably drive less than 5k.

geggam 8y ago

You mean people have quit coming in full cash 10-15% over ask for houses in the bay area ? 2 years ago people with standard financing didnt have a chance in hell of buying a house in the Bay

matthewowen 8y ago
I know a bunch of people who have bought in this price range with standard financing, and I based the numbers on sale prices.

donaldknuth123 8y ago

You seem to be massively misunderstanding the Bay Area real estate market. Homes are routinely bought in full cash 20% over asking. No average engineers are making those kinds of offers.

ummonk 8y ago

They'll be a lot more expensive by the time some of us turn 30.

deanmoriarty 8y ago

Unless you mean both spouses should earn around 200k and thus bringing in a FAANG-equivalent income of 400k, I really don't know how you could afford what you are saying on a single 150k-200k salary (and perhaps another 50k for your spouse's salary, since not everybody works in tech). After paying for CA taxes, fed taxes, kids' schools, rent, car expenses, 401k contributions, I really don't know how you would come up with the savings necessary for the huge down payment required for a house there. Just last week, a friend of mine got outbid on a ~1.5M house in the East Bay Area because another buyer came in and offered a down payment of $700k (!!), whereas my friend just had a more traditional 20%. Good luck getting to those savings on a 150k startup salary and mostly worthless options. In my experience, and I certainly respect yours, people just need to stop working for startups and go to big corporations, period. And I speak as someone who had a low 7 figure liquidation event from a startup, and I'm still so against startups, because that liquidation event still didn't match the compensation I could have gotten as FAANG all along.

wolco 8y ago
Why would it matter 20% or 700k as a seller I get the full amount from the bank.
- deanmoriarty 8y ago
  I believe the buyer was also slightly more aggressive, i.e. was willing to let the deal close faster than my friend, who rightfully wanted to take his time before getting into the biggest purchase of his life (inspections and such). That, paired with the massive downpayment the buyer was ready to immediately put in earnest money, was enough to convince the seller. Real estate transactions are not always that rational. Also, many folks in the Bay Area just go all cash, and that's obviously much better for the seller since it means very fast closing. But this if off topic, because a person on a 150k startup salary in the Bay Area won't be able to participate in any of these discussions.
- TuringNYC 8y ago
  Because most offers are "subject to favorable financing" and if the person doesnt get favorable financing, the offer falls thru and the seller ends up holding the housing longer w/o a seller and paying the carry. People will often sell at a lower absolute price (slightly lower) for all-cash offers without the issues of financing. Also, financing can fall thru for silly reasons (eg the bank found some crazy lien from the 1940s) and want it cleared before they offer financing.
eanzenberg 8y ago
>>FAANG-equivalent income of 400k LUL dude, I hear this shit being parroted ad-nauseum. The amount of FAANG people that hit this level or more is like, 5-10%. Take a look at the top 5-10% of non-FAANG companies and you'll see those employees are also hitting this mark. There's nothing special about FAANG. I understand lots of FAANG employees parrot this around to make themselves feel better about their life choices.
- deanmoriarty 8y ago
  According to my experience (and again, that's the only thing I know), that's not even remotely true. When I interviewed a couple years ago, I made sure to interview at FAANG (specifically Facebook, Google, Netflix) and I also interviewed at half dozen big public companies in the same couple months (among which Oracle, Salesforce, Cisco, Juniper, Palo Alto Networks). I didn't interview at any private company (Uber, AirBnB, ...), since I was coming out of the startup world and I wanted liquid compensation. The FAANG offers that came back were all significantly higher than the other ones, and the constant was certainly me (a software engineer with 7 years of experience at the time and a BS + MS in Computer Engineering). All the FAANG offers (luckily I got an offer from all the 3 I interviewed at) were at a total liquid compensation of $~400-450k/y (annualized cash + RSU), and I'm certainly not in the top 10% of their tech workforce, not even remotely close, I come in as a generalist with some ops experience who spent a couple months studying algorithms and data structures. I don't even have an active GitHub profile. All the other non-FAANG tech companies (I got an offer from 4) were at a total liquid compensation of $~220k/y (annualized cash + RSU). The only other companies who matched the FAANG offers were a couple of hedge funds on the East Coast, but I didn't want to relocate and I wanted to keep working for a tech company. In the end, I joined Google. So, I'm just reporting my own personal experience based on the data I directly experienced (I have PDFs of all the offers :-)). Feel free to ask any follow up question, I love educating software engineers on their real market value, since I think many sell themselves too short in this thriving market.

nostrademons 8y ago

You pay for it in commute time, though. I just checked Zillow; the houses that are anywhere within walking distance of BART go for $1.7-$2.8M, with the $1M homes clustered near the freeway. Driving across the Bay Bridge into SF can easily take an hour; hell, I know people who've been stuck on the bridge for over an hour.

closeparen 8y ago
For precisely this reason, the most valuable real estate in Berkeley is BART parking. It's also (officially) not for sale at any price. You have to sit on the waitlist for a few years. I'm sure there's a black secondary market somewhere but I haven't found it. BART is looking to eliminate all its parking, so this strategy won't work much longer. (They claim that the parking program doesn't bring in much revenue, but also refuse to charge a market-clearing price!) Maybe the houses away from BART will get a little more affordable and those willing to walk 45 minutes or so will get a break. Or it'll end up like Sunnyvale where most of the "Caltrain" parking is actually provided by the City.
philsnow 8y ago
I started a remote job in August (8 months ago) and I've saved about 400 hours of commute time since then. (~2.5 hours / day) x (~20 work days / month) x (8 months) = ~400 hours
matthewowen 8y ago
I checked this before I posted to make sure things hadn't changed. Here's an example: https://www.redfin.com/CA/Berkeley/2333-Sacramento-St-94702/home/1245382 https://www.redfin.com/CA/Berkeley/2333-Sacramento-St-94702/... BART is a 20 minute walk, five minute bike ride (and with the weather and topography cycling is a great option).
- nostrademons 8y ago
  That's still an hour+ commute: 20 minute walk + 5 minute wait + 35 minute BART ride. Plus however long the walk/connection is on the SF side. If you're working at Embarcadero it could be a few minutes shorter; if you're where a bunch of the post-2010 tech companies are clustered at 7th street in SOMA, it's another 25 or so via bus or light rail connection.

defen 8y ago

> Berkeley has pleasant single family homes in a great school district around the $1MM mark. You can absolutely do that on $200k/year. Let's say you make $200k/year and manage to put together a $300k down payment and get a $700k mortgage at 3.8%. Here is the breakdown of your annual spending (using 2018 numbers): $18,500 to 401K $35,930 in federal income tax $10,593 in FICA (Social security and medicare) $13,724 in California income tax Take home after tax + retirement savings: $121,253 Also, remember that the rules have changed and only $10,000 in state, local, and property tax is deductible against federal income. Remaining payments: $39,140 in mortgage payments $10,500 in property tax $1,000 in homeowners insurance $10,000 in car ownership costs (gas, maintenance, insurance, financing or depreciation) $4,000 in utilities (gas, electricity, water, trash, internet) $1,000 for phone That leaves you with $55,613 of "real" annual take home, or $4,634 per month, without counting the cost of food, entertainment, other debt servicing, etc. Certainly not poverty wages, and many people get by with far less, but you'll also spend 2+ hours per day commuting and have a significant fraction of your net worth tied up in a house in an earthquake-prone area.

opportune 8y ago
Since we've already accounted for all housing and car payments (btw, your car ownership costs are way too high as a lower bound. I would say an decent $10k car you hold on to for 5 years at a time would have total annual costs closer to $5/year) that doesn't sound bad at all
- defen 8y ago
  I was using the numbers here: https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/loans/total-cost-owning-car/ https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/loans/total-cost-owning-car/ but you could certainly get it down a bit if you don't mind driving an older car.
  - opportune 8y ago
    15k miles a year is also a lot of miles. I probably drive less than 5k.