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For a Model 3 even with readily available charging that still means ~1 hour waiting on a supercharger per charge, and you've gotta do that 2-3x to get from, say

For a Model 3 even with readily available charging that still means ~1 hour waiting on a supercharger per charge, and you've gotta do that 2-3x to get from, say, Amsterdam to Kitzbuhel for a skiing road trip. Figure 15 Euro minimum to use the charger during that time? (I'm using range numbers and charging costs available on the web to run this calculation) I know it's _possible_ to get somewhere without range anxiety but 20% added time plus 30-45 Euro for the privilege to do that is a serious downside. If you only do this a couple times a year and the rest of your driving is local then this makes sense, but I don't know that for regular long-range drivers this argument works.

govg 8y ago
I think the idea is that you use the superchargers as part of a meal stop that you would make with an ordinary car anyway. If you stop every X km with a regular car for breaks, and Tesla's network ensures you can always find a supercharger in these steps, you can stop, eat / refresh yourself and by the time you're done your car will be ready to make the next leg.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  When was the last time you saw a supercharger in a fast food or restaurant parking lot? I live in a part of the Northeast where Teslas are very popular but I haven't seen one.
  - Domenic_S 8y ago
    From memory - SLO, CA: Madonna Inn Atascadero, CA: Denny's parking lot, across the street from a sandwich shop, 5 minute walk from more Gilroy, CA: spitting distance of in-n-out, more in the same lot San Jose, CA: big shopping center with BJ's, Chili's, panda express, etc Someplace on the 5 between Kettleman city and LA: Subway parking lot This is literally just from memory of the ones where I've been. Perhaps it's worse in other parts of the country?
  - willglynn 8y ago
    On a drive from Chicago to Minneapolis: * Rockford IL is in the parking lot of a shopping mall with restaurants at the perimeter. * Madison WI (1) is in the parking lot of a shopping mall with restaurants at the perimeter. * Madison WI (2) is in the parking lot of a grocery store. * Mauston WI is in the back of a Culver's adjacent to a McDonald's. * Eau Claire WI is in the back of a commercial strip with a Panera Bread and… a noodle place?, with more restaurants across the street. * Oakdale MN is in the parking lot of a grocery store. Literally every stop I could make sells food.
  - vsl 8y ago
    I’ve only recently seen a Supercharger that wasn’t (it had a passable gas station next to it, but that’s one level worse than a fast food).
natch 8y ago
I drove from San Diego to SF in one of my many long trips and most of my charging stops were 10 minutes. I also had two 20 minute stops, one 30 minute, and one 15 minute. The 30 minute stop was near the end where I wanted to arrive home near half full. Food, checking out local shops, and coffee + bathroom break for those three longer stops. For the short stops, it was just get a bit of charge, maybe a quick stretch or bathroom visit, and on my way. People have the most bizarre misconceptions about Tesla charging, I think because they assume you have to charge from 0 to full at every stop, which truly would be slow. It simply doesn’t work that way if you do it properly. I mean seriously... most of my stops were 10 minutes. Quite a contrast from what people think. Plugging in numbers from a map and going by total charge-to-full time overlooks the way charging is so much faster at the bottom of the range. On the other hand taking a trip to New Mexico and back from California, many stops were 40 minutes to an hour because the chargers are spaced further apart in some of the desert states. YMMV. It depends on your route but the chargers are getting dramatically faster very soon, AND the charger network is getting more and more densely built out.
- jhalstead 8y ago
  Correct me if I misunderstood (or read things too literally), but you're saying you stopped more than 8 times in a 500 mile trip? That seems like a lot, especially if they were for recharging. But I don't know the charging rate so maybe it was a case of many short sessions vs. 1 or 2 long ones? Note: I got >8 because you said most stops were 10-min and then listed 4 stops longer than 10-min.
  - dragontamer 8y ago
    Short sessions are optimal. The battery charges faster when below 50% capacity.
    - Reason077 8y ago
      That’s true, but you also spend extra time driving off the main road, pulling up to the charger, and plugging in. So while 2 stops is going to be much faster than 1 on a 500 mile journey, there’s likely to be diminishing returns after that.
Domenic_S 8y ago
> that still means ~1 hour waiting on a supercharger per charge In a normal car, you fill the tank to full, burn the gas until you're low, then fill it to full again. EVs aren't the same way, and Teslas on road trips definitely aren't. You don't charge to 100% -- you charge only long enough to reach your next supercharger. Because of the charge curve, you charge at the fastest rate when your battery is low. If you try to charge to 100% every time like you'd do in a gas car, you're gonna have a bad time. This was the hardest thing for me to get used to in daily driving -- you have to be opportunistic about charging. Whenever you can plug in, plug in. At 70% and there's an empty charger? Plug in. You'd never go to the gas station with a 70% full gas tank, but it's just a different beast altogether.
ajross 8y ago
> Amsterdam to Kitzbuhel for a skiing road trip That's a 10 hour drive! You're genuinely choosing a personal vehicle on its ability to drive literally all day? I mean, sure. Everyone has their own preferences. But this is a wildly beyond median data point. Most people will take a trip like this once every few years at most. The vast majority are going to look at that trip and fly/train and rent a car in Austria. Buy the car you want. But arguing on the internet that "I can't use an EV because it doesn't do this one incredibly rare weird thing I want" seems like poor form.
- sailfast 8y ago
  My family's done this drive a couple times for vacations. Much easier / cheaper than flying and renting with all your gear, etc. In the United States I routinely am in the car for 8-10 hours each way to visit family, but most of my daily driving is short distances. I don't want to own two cars. I agree with you completely - buy the car you want. What I am hearing from a lot of folks here though is "I bought the car I wanted (for most of my driving) but I'm also saying it's the same or better on long road trips"
- g4k 8y ago
  It is not incredibly rare. Many people from the Netherlands drive to Austria and Italy for vacation.
  - ajross 8y ago
    Yes yes, lot of people do everything. The question is whether or not something you do once every two years (my educated guess based on that kind of trip frequency per net passenger car -- and I live in the western US!) is a critical requirement for a passenger vehicle to be driven every day. There are all sorts of things your car can't do that "many" other people do. All I'm saying is stop the nonsense that pretends this is specific to EV's. This is the logic that demands everyone have a pickup truck, or 4WD, or passenger van, or, hell, private aircraft. Use what you need. But (1) don't pretend that what you need is what I do and (2) be realistic about what you "need". Like, seriously, you really can't take a train to the Alps? Seriously?
vsl 8y ago
It may not be for you. It’s fine for me. (FWIW, I also politically strongly disagree with EU’s draconian emission standards that are attempting to push EVs on people who don’t won’t EVs.) The route you mention is full of Superchargers. You absolutely don’t need to wait an hour for a charge, and that’s a bad way to charge (lower rate of charge on fully empty and mostly full batteries). And you depart your hope fully charged and then charge in your Kitzbuhel hotel. On the way, there’s plenty of opportunities to stop for a 15-20 minutes charge and a coffee+bathroom break. I can’t drive more than 3, 4 max, hours without taking a small break. Most of the time, the damn car is notifying me it’s all charged and ready to continue before I am done with my coffee. It’s fine for me. My brother, who routine goes Prague-Amsterdam overnight in a single go, would probably hate the wasted time. It’s not for everyone.
Reason077 8y ago
"added time plus 30-45 Euro for the privilege to do that is a serious downside" So would you rather pay €30-45 for charging, or ~€150 for petrol/diesel? And of course it's only added time if you weren't planning to make stops anyway. Most drivers take breaks, and arguably it's unsafe to not do so over such long journeys.
- tinus_hn 8y ago
  Such a serious downside anyway, for these once a year long distance trips.

govg 8y ago

I think the idea is that you use the superchargers as part of a meal stop that you would make with an ordinary car anyway. If you stop every X km with a regular car for breaks, and Tesla's network ensures you can always find a supercharger in these steps, you can stop, eat / refresh yourself and by the time you're done your car will be ready to make the next leg.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago
When was the last time you saw a supercharger in a fast food or restaurant parking lot? I live in a part of the Northeast where Teslas are very popular but I haven't seen one.
- Domenic_S 8y ago
  From memory - SLO, CA: Madonna Inn Atascadero, CA: Denny's parking lot, across the street from a sandwich shop, 5 minute walk from more Gilroy, CA: spitting distance of in-n-out, more in the same lot San Jose, CA: big shopping center with BJ's, Chili's, panda express, etc Someplace on the 5 between Kettleman city and LA: Subway parking lot This is literally just from memory of the ones where I've been. Perhaps it's worse in other parts of the country?
- willglynn 8y ago
  On a drive from Chicago to Minneapolis: * Rockford IL is in the parking lot of a shopping mall with restaurants at the perimeter. * Madison WI (1) is in the parking lot of a shopping mall with restaurants at the perimeter. * Madison WI (2) is in the parking lot of a grocery store. * Mauston WI is in the back of a Culver's adjacent to a McDonald's. * Eau Claire WI is in the back of a commercial strip with a Panera Bread and… a noodle place?, with more restaurants across the street. * Oakdale MN is in the parking lot of a grocery store. Literally every stop I could make sells food.
- vsl 8y ago
  I’ve only recently seen a Supercharger that wasn’t (it had a passable gas station next to it, but that’s one level worse than a fast food).

natch 8y ago

I drove from San Diego to SF in one of my many long trips and most of my charging stops were 10 minutes. I also had two 20 minute stops, one 30 minute, and one 15 minute. The 30 minute stop was near the end where I wanted to arrive home near half full. Food, checking out local shops, and coffee + bathroom break for those three longer stops. For the short stops, it was just get a bit of charge, maybe a quick stretch or bathroom visit, and on my way. People have the most bizarre misconceptions about Tesla charging, I think because they assume you have to charge from 0 to full at every stop, which truly would be slow. It simply doesn’t work that way if you do it properly. I mean seriously... most of my stops were 10 minutes. Quite a contrast from what people think. Plugging in numbers from a map and going by total charge-to-full time overlooks the way charging is so much faster at the bottom of the range. On the other hand taking a trip to New Mexico and back from California, many stops were 40 minutes to an hour because the chargers are spaced further apart in some of the desert states. YMMV. It depends on your route but the chargers are getting dramatically faster very soon, AND the charger network is getting more and more densely built out.

jhalstead 8y ago
Correct me if I misunderstood (or read things too literally), but you're saying you stopped more than 8 times in a 500 mile trip? That seems like a lot, especially if they were for recharging. But I don't know the charging rate so maybe it was a case of many short sessions vs. 1 or 2 long ones? Note: I got >8 because you said most stops were 10-min and then listed 4 stops longer than 10-min.
- dragontamer 8y ago
  Short sessions are optimal. The battery charges faster when below 50% capacity.
  - Reason077 8y ago
    That’s true, but you also spend extra time driving off the main road, pulling up to the charger, and plugging in. So while 2 stops is going to be much faster than 1 on a 500 mile journey, there’s likely to be diminishing returns after that.

Domenic_S 8y ago

> that still means ~1 hour waiting on a supercharger per charge In a normal car, you fill the tank to full, burn the gas until you're low, then fill it to full again. EVs aren't the same way, and Teslas on road trips definitely aren't. You don't charge to 100% -- you charge only long enough to reach your next supercharger. Because of the charge curve, you charge at the fastest rate when your battery is low. If you try to charge to 100% every time like you'd do in a gas car, you're gonna have a bad time. This was the hardest thing for me to get used to in daily driving -- you have to be opportunistic about charging. Whenever you can plug in, plug in. At 70% and there's an empty charger? Plug in. You'd never go to the gas station with a 70% full gas tank, but it's just a different beast altogether.

ajross 8y ago

> Amsterdam to Kitzbuhel for a skiing road trip That's a 10 hour drive! You're genuinely choosing a personal vehicle on its ability to drive literally all day? I mean, sure. Everyone has their own preferences. But this is a wildly beyond median data point. Most people will take a trip like this once every few years at most. The vast majority are going to look at that trip and fly/train and rent a car in Austria. Buy the car you want. But arguing on the internet that "I can't use an EV because it doesn't do this one incredibly rare weird thing I want" seems like poor form.

sailfast 8y ago
My family's done this drive a couple times for vacations. Much easier / cheaper than flying and renting with all your gear, etc. In the United States I routinely am in the car for 8-10 hours each way to visit family, but most of my daily driving is short distances. I don't want to own two cars. I agree with you completely - buy the car you want. What I am hearing from a lot of folks here though is "I bought the car I wanted (for most of my driving) but I'm also saying it's the same or better on long road trips"
g4k 8y ago
It is not incredibly rare. Many people from the Netherlands drive to Austria and Italy for vacation.
- ajross 8y ago
  Yes yes, lot of people do everything. The question is whether or not something you do once every two years (my educated guess based on that kind of trip frequency per net passenger car -- and I live in the western US!) is a critical requirement for a passenger vehicle to be driven every day. There are all sorts of things your car can't do that "many" other people do. All I'm saying is stop the nonsense that pretends this is specific to EV's. This is the logic that demands everyone have a pickup truck, or 4WD, or passenger van, or, hell, private aircraft. Use what you need. But (1) don't pretend that what you need is what I do and (2) be realistic about what you "need". Like, seriously, you really can't take a train to the Alps? Seriously?

vsl 8y ago

It may not be for you. It’s fine for me. (FWIW, I also politically strongly disagree with EU’s draconian emission standards that are attempting to push EVs on people who don’t won’t EVs.) The route you mention is full of Superchargers. You absolutely don’t need to wait an hour for a charge, and that’s a bad way to charge (lower rate of charge on fully empty and mostly full batteries). And you depart your hope fully charged and then charge in your Kitzbuhel hotel. On the way, there’s plenty of opportunities to stop for a 15-20 minutes charge and a coffee+bathroom break. I can’t drive more than 3, 4 max, hours without taking a small break. Most of the time, the damn car is notifying me it’s all charged and ready to continue before I am done with my coffee. It’s fine for me. My brother, who routine goes Prague-Amsterdam overnight in a single go, would probably hate the wasted time. It’s not for everyone.

Reason077 8y ago

"added time plus 30-45 Euro for the privilege to do that is a serious downside" So would you rather pay €30-45 for charging, or ~€150 for petrol/diesel? And of course it's only added time if you weren't planning to make stops anyway. Most drivers take breaks, and arguably it's unsafe to not do so over such long journeys.

tinus_hn 8y ago
Such a serious downside anyway, for these once a year long distance trips.