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The authors argument that Markdown should be discarded because there are several competing implementations isn't valid. For many years (even now), we have seve

The authors argument that Markdown should be discarded because there are several competing implementations isn't valid. For many years (even now), we have several competing implementations of HTML, yet the HTML document is the dominant presentational document format (and UI layout language). It hasn't done anything to hurt adoption. The fact that Markdown does have a common subset of features, and that Markdown is widely interoperable with a vast amount of products is why it wins. As far as I can tell Org-Mode markup is used within Emacs and really nowhere else.

tamrix 7y ago
And so soon we'll get org-mode to markdown transpilers.
- mickael-kerjean 7y ago
  We've been having it since quite a few years, it's called export and it looks like this: - original org: https://demo.filestash.app/api/export/hnorg/text/org/emacs.org https://demo.filestash.app/api/export/hnorg/text/org/emacs.o... - markdown: https://demo.filestash.app/api/export/hnorg/text/markdown/emacs.org https://demo.filestash.app/api/export/hnorg/text/markdown/em... - html: https://demo.filestash.app/api/export/hnorg/text/html/emacs.org https://demo.filestash.app/api/export/hnorg/text/html/emacs.... - pdf: https://demo.filestash.app/api/export/hnorg/application/pdf/emacs.org https://demo.filestash.app/api/export/hnorg/application/pdf/... - more fancy plain text: https://demo.filestash.app/api/export/hnorg/text/plain/emacs.org https://demo.filestash.app/api/export/hnorg/text/plain/emacs... there's more builtin and with plugin you can say extend the github markdown to cope with jekyll, hugo, ...etc
  - joaomsa 7y ago
    This looks really nice, do you have plans to implement text search of note contents? No matter how methodical I get with tags and hierarchies, nothing beats search for recall.
    - mickael-kerjean 7y ago
      It's the feature I'm working on as we speak :)
    - mickael-kerjean 7y ago
      The search has landed :)
  - joseph8th 7y ago
    Very cool.
- aepiepaey 7y ago
  pandoc -f org -t markdown <file>
simonh 7y ago
It's arguable that the fact that there are multiple implementations is itself a sign of success. If Org-Mode was to become widely adopted, it's pretty much inevitable it would get multiple implementations too.
- mgoetzke 7y ago
  indeed it is. When something is used by a lot of people, they will find use cases not covered sufficiently and will try to extend. Some of these will survive and be absorbed back, some will not. Normal evolutionary pressure at work.
mort96 7y ago
The argument isn't that Markdown is bad because there are competing implementations. The argument is that Markdown is bad because there is no standard for those implementations to adhere to, so they end up being wildly incompatible. With HTML, there will be browser differences, but there's a pretty well-defined standard which browsers try to adhere to; there will be bugs, but at least you can know you're writing standards-compliant HTML, and then work around particular browser engines as necessary. You say Markdown has a common set of features, but what is that common set? There's no standard, and I find myself surprisingly frequently struggle with figuring out what's the correct way in a particular markdown engine to do what I need to do. An example is that in Reddit's markdown; this text: ``` if (true) { console.log("hi"); } ``` will all end up as inline code, with all the newlines and extra whitespace stripped out. The correct way to do it in Reddit's markdown is to hit the space bar (n+1)*4 times before each line, where n is the indentation level. Some (but presumably not all) other markdown engines would render it as a code block. Markdown engines are also wildly inconsistent about when they treat something as a link, and whether they require a blank line between a paragraph and code blocks or lists. They seem to mostly agree about how explicit links and bold and emphasis and headings work though, so if that's your consistent common set of features, I suppose you're right.
- inlineint 7y ago
  > You say Markdown has a common set of features, but what is that common set? There's no standard, and I find myself surprisingly frequently struggle with figuring out what's the correct way in a particular markdown engine to do what I need to do. There is CommonMark specification: https://commonmark.org https://commonmark.org.
  - mort96 7y ago
    Yeah, CommonMark is awesome, and if the argument was about CommonMark and not Markdown in general, I'd be on the other side of the argument. However, most Markdown renderers don't implement CommonMark.
    - 7y ago
simias 7y ago
HTML has a lock-in because it's supported by web browsers directly, exactly like JS. I have a profound dislike for anything SGML-related but what can I do? Display my website as a PDF? At best I can transpile an other format into HTML. HTML and JS have succeeded in spite of their clunkiness, not because of it. Markdown on the other hand has no such lock-in, mainly because it usually gets transpiled into HTML or other formats. Replacing it is a lot easier and can be done incrementally without client support.
mannykannot 7y ago
The several competing implementations of HTML are not a feature, they are a complication we have to deal with. This has not hurt adoption because of the nature of the marketplace. The 'number of implementations' issue with org-mode is that there are almost no implementations outside of Emacs. Standardization by obscurity is not a very compelling virtue, and the opportunity for widespread adoption has passed.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

tamrix 7y ago

And so soon we'll get org-mode to markdown transpilers.

mickael-kerjean 7y ago
We've been having it since quite a few years, it's called export and it looks like this: - original org: https://demo.filestash.app/api/export/hnorg/text/org/emacs.org https://demo.filestash.app/api/export/hnorg/text/org/emacs.o... - markdown: https://demo.filestash.app/api/export/hnorg/text/markdown/emacs.org https://demo.filestash.app/api/export/hnorg/text/markdown/em... - html: https://demo.filestash.app/api/export/hnorg/text/html/emacs.org https://demo.filestash.app/api/export/hnorg/text/html/emacs.... - pdf: https://demo.filestash.app/api/export/hnorg/application/pdf/emacs.org https://demo.filestash.app/api/export/hnorg/application/pdf/... - more fancy plain text: https://demo.filestash.app/api/export/hnorg/text/plain/emacs.org https://demo.filestash.app/api/export/hnorg/text/plain/emacs... there's more builtin and with plugin you can say extend the github markdown to cope with jekyll, hugo, ...etc
- joaomsa 7y ago
  This looks really nice, do you have plans to implement text search of note contents? No matter how methodical I get with tags and hierarchies, nothing beats search for recall.
  - mickael-kerjean 7y ago
    It's the feature I'm working on as we speak :)
  - mickael-kerjean 7y ago
    The search has landed :)
- joseph8th 7y ago
  Very cool.
aepiepaey 7y ago
pandoc -f org -t markdown <file>

simonh 7y ago

It's arguable that the fact that there are multiple implementations is itself a sign of success. If Org-Mode was to become widely adopted, it's pretty much inevitable it would get multiple implementations too.

mgoetzke 7y ago
indeed it is. When something is used by a lot of people, they will find use cases not covered sufficiently and will try to extend. Some of these will survive and be absorbed back, some will not. Normal evolutionary pressure at work.

mort96 7y ago

The argument isn't that Markdown is bad because there are competing implementations. The argument is that Markdown is bad because there is no standard for those implementations to adhere to, so they end up being wildly incompatible. With HTML, there will be browser differences, but there's a pretty well-defined standard which browsers try to adhere to; there will be bugs, but at least you can know you're writing standards-compliant HTML, and then work around particular browser engines as necessary. You say Markdown has a common set of features, but what is that common set? There's no standard, and I find myself surprisingly frequently struggle with figuring out what's the correct way in a particular markdown engine to do what I need to do. An example is that in Reddit's markdown; this text: ``` if (true) { console.log("hi"); } ``` will all end up as inline code, with all the newlines and extra whitespace stripped out. The correct way to do it in Reddit's markdown is to hit the space bar (n+1)*4 times before each line, where n is the indentation level. Some (but presumably not all) other markdown engines would render it as a code block. Markdown engines are also wildly inconsistent about when they treat something as a link, and whether they require a blank line between a paragraph and code blocks or lists. They seem to mostly agree about how explicit links and bold and emphasis and headings work though, so if that's your consistent common set of features, I suppose you're right.

inlineint 7y ago
> You say Markdown has a common set of features, but what is that common set? There's no standard, and I find myself surprisingly frequently struggle with figuring out what's the correct way in a particular markdown engine to do what I need to do. There is CommonMark specification: https://commonmark.org https://commonmark.org.
- mort96 7y ago
  Yeah, CommonMark is awesome, and if the argument was about CommonMark and not Markdown in general, I'd be on the other side of the argument. However, most Markdown renderers don't implement CommonMark.
  - 7y ago

simias 7y ago

HTML has a lock-in because it's supported by web browsers directly, exactly like JS. I have a profound dislike for anything SGML-related but what can I do? Display my website as a PDF? At best I can transpile an other format into HTML. HTML and JS have succeeded in spite of their clunkiness, not because of it. Markdown on the other hand has no such lock-in, mainly because it usually gets transpiled into HTML or other formats. Replacing it is a lot easier and can be done incrementally without client support.

mannykannot 7y ago

The several competing implementations of HTML are not a feature, they are a complication we have to deal with. This has not hurt adoption because of the nature of the marketplace. The 'number of implementations' issue with org-mode is that there are almost no implementations outside of Emacs. Standardization by obscurity is not a very compelling virtue, and the opportunity for widespread adoption has passed.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]