4 ms·

There wasn’t enough innovation. What they offer is replaceable instantly by any single university in the world which offers a course for free and hosted on YouT

by dooes 8y ago

There wasn’t enough innovation. What they offer is replaceable instantly by any single university in the world which offers a course for free and hosted on YouTube. I don’t have a solution but I think online education has not been solved. Clearly there is a lot of innovation but nobody is making it.

cinquemb 8y ago
>What they offer is replaceable instantly by any single university in the world which offers a course for free and hosted on YouTube. I completely agree with this. >I don’t have a solution but I think online education has not been solved. Clearly there is a lot of innovation but nobody is making it. I don't think the problem is online education, I think problem with these ed-tech companies is that they still are trying compete with the credentialing system of universities without access to all the student loan debt the latter have access to. Gotta love the choices HS graduates can get funneled into/ reinforced by mainstream opinion today: bootcamps, nanodegrees, or loading up on student loan debt if you can edge out agaisnt the legacy/bribery admits. I think what people are really trying to solve is a cheaper credentialing system, that get's distorted by some of the incentives involved.
- Gene_Parmesan 8y ago
  > trying to compete with the credentialing system of universities Which gets even more difficult when places like Georgia Tech are offering fully accredited Masters of Science in Comp Sci programs, delivered fully online, for a grand total of $7500 in tuition. I don't think any sort of 'certificate' or accreditation approach was the right strategy for them. I was probably their prime candidate for paid certs -- I am a lawyer who self-studied CS for 4 years and just recently successfully switched careers to software dev. I took so many online courses -- Coursera, edX, MIT's OpenCourseWare, Stanford's online courses. In every interview I had, the interviewers were impressed by the fact I took such a variety of courses (I listed them on my resume, underneath my "real" education history.) But not a single one ever even asked if I had obtained any sort of certificates from them. No one cared, not even for a second. The whole story you want to tell when you go this way is, "I got the practical learning and experience I needed; I didn't go for an official degree because I felt the piece of paper wasn't worth the money." The proof (for potential employers) that you succeeded is in your abilities -- specifically, your portfolio of personal projects you create and are ready to present. Taking all those online courses shows initiative, curiosity, passion for the field; a certificate of any sort from some place like Udacity means less than nothing. Would it have mattered any more if it was accredited by some accrediting body? My intuition says no. Employers feel comfortable relying on traditional degrees because they're, well, traditional. There's the whole cultural significance of them, and of the experience of attending a four year program. But, right or wrong, the value of these degrees comes from the school name. Is it a nationally known school? Or a regionally known one? Is it a school in the city that your interviewer (or their coworkers) attended? But if you come to them with some accredited papers from Udacity, there is going to be a very wide respectability gap that will have to be crossed. It's not an inspiring approach, but I can't help but feel like a bland subscription model is probably the best they could have done. Maybe they could have become Google's Pluralsight or something. I think there's still definitely room for 'disruption' in the online education space, but I think it's probably going to look and feel a lot more like traditional higher ed than many might have thought 5 years ago -- even to the extent that I think we'll see traditional schools leading the way, because those traditional schools come to the starting block already carrying a lot of cachet. Why pay for a piece of paper if the name at the top means nothing?
  - cinquemb 8y ago
    >Which gets even more difficult when places like Georgia Tech are offering fully accredited Masters of Science in Comp Sci programs, delivered fully online, for a grand total of $7500 in tuition… I don't think any sort of 'certificate' or accreditation approach was the right strategy for them… But not a single one ever even asked if I had obtained any sort of certificates from them. No one cared, not even for a second. I agree (my personal experience was similar as a dropout with regards to getting a onsite software jobs, pretty easy when staying away from Big Tech™), they needed some other way, and tried to fight a battle that even traditional schools are finding themselves needing to step into (at least for CS). >Would it have mattered any more if it was accredited by some accrediting body? My intuition says no. Employers feel comfortable relying on traditional degrees because they're, well, traditional. But, right or wrong As someone who is constantly looking for alternatives that will fit for me for the types of problems I want to work on, this is the part that sucks to deal with. I enjoyed working/contracting for research labs in different (neuroimaging and a chemical engineering lab) fields than I had when pursing an undergraduate degree that I was only able to get because of someone I knew who could not only identify my interest, but vouch for me personally. From my experience, in the real world there is space for exceptions, but they have to be hacked around now, as there is no clean path. Maybe there is some entrepreneur out there with the right network/skills who could build an online product that could deliver that. At this point, I can not be bothered paying to go through traditional academic routes because there is so much focus on optimizing for everything but moving a body of knowledge forward. When I see ed-tech companies try to emulate the existing system, I just have to laugh… at least until I see something different. I'm only 27, but I'd recommend to every future HS grad that wants more than the credential value of a degree and gives such a weight of 0, to just abandon all hope from getting that from universities.
- dooes 8y ago
  even if they get their credentialling system to be “accepted”, they have not solved the root issue which is the elephant in the room: their credentials are not trustworthy because anyone can easily cheat their tests. The other elephant in the room is that the rigor of their online courses. Education is not a one size fits all - you cannot offer the same from MIT vs community college no matter if the course content is the same. The difficulty (proxied by the reputation of the school) of the same courses vary wildly and dramatically, as does workload, peer support, TA support, exams, and even the pace and how the final grade is curved. By necessity they cannot grade difficultly, since they are trying to get people to pay for courses like they are dessert. By necessity they cannot offer different tiers of difficulty based on entrance exams or other tests, since they would insult their customer base (the intuitive argument being that those in most need of such nanodegrees are inversely the ones who may do worse in general).
  - povertyworld 8y ago
    The projects are certainly as rigorous anything you will get in any undergrad degree. The difference is the grading system. With Udacity, you have to hit every deliverable as if it were a paid contract, but you can keep going 'till you hit them all, since there's no deadline. In college, there's a deadline, but you can skip that one thing you couldn't quite get working, and still move on with a 'B', etc.
    - dooes 8y ago
      Deadlines matter a lot in increasing difficult (but also helps with efficiency). Especially when compounded with multiple courses.
      - povertyworld 8y ago
        I think that's true. Deadlines do have some pedagogical value. When I did Udacity, it was pay by month, so there was a sense of time pressure in that every extra month burned cash. I think they switched to the flat fee now because too many people were blazing through in 2-4 months which is too bad because it took out the admittedly low pressure time aspect of the program.
christudor 8y ago
This. One of the strangest things about the MOOC boom in 2012/13 was the fact that so much of what they were doing already existed. Taking a pre-existing paid-for product and giving it away for free is not innovation, especially when you can only give it away for free because of external funding.
- debacle 8y ago
  Finding a way to provide quality, accredited credit hours for 1/5th of what you'd pay at a community college, and at the same time opening the doors to federal funding dollars, should have been a paramount goal.
  - povertyworld 8y ago
    The problem is if it's accredited then instead of just offering reviewed "iterate till you pass" programming projects, they will have to have high stakes "cram and regurgitate" style exams which are a staple of accredited higher ed. If you go for that stuff, why not just enroll in a university somewhere?
    - dooes 8y ago
      That is precisely the conclusion the market has come to, and why they are having issues. Though their target audience is actually the professional working folk.. who don’t have the motivation and time to work on deadlines projects or the willpower to finish non deadlines projects and hw. Overall the business case seems difficult
      - tdhz77 8y ago
        Dr. David Harpool talks about this in his book survivor college. Basically argues that the market aka the board makes horrible decisions for education. Survivor College https://www.amazon.com/dp/1593300670/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_mYxRCbMQTSQRW https://www.amazon.com/dp/1593300670/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_mY...
      - indigochill 8y ago
povertyworld 8y ago
When you watch a class on youtube no one is reviewing your projects. Obviously that is the difference. Do you think someone who watches CS193P on youtube is going to get the same out of it as someone who does the iOS nanodegree?
- colmvp 8y ago
  I would guess CS193P is probably more in depth just in their lecture content alone than the Nanodegree lecture content. And I can't speak to every Nanodegree, but the projects I worked on in my Nanodegree were 'easy' enough that it wasn't hard for the reviewers to mark. There wasn't a ton of room for creativity. Most importantly, their feedback was pretty mixed in terms of how in-depth they went. Often, they'd just link me to posts from other real-life experts to the point where I felt like I was getting most of the 'juice' from outside of Udacity.
  - povertyworld 8y ago
    CS193P is a few lectures on Swift, a couple on MVC, and then the rest is just a different part of the iOS SDK every day. It's certainly good, and whenever they publish a new semester, I watch it, but it's not like there's some special Stanford magic there.

by dooes 8y ago

cinquemb 8y ago

>What they offer is replaceable instantly by any single university in the world which offers a course for free and hosted on YouTube. I completely agree with this. >I don’t have a solution but I think online education has not been solved. Clearly there is a lot of innovation but nobody is making it. I don't think the problem is online education, I think problem with these ed-tech companies is that they still are trying compete with the credentialing system of universities without access to all the student loan debt the latter have access to. Gotta love the choices HS graduates can get funneled into/ reinforced by mainstream opinion today: bootcamps, nanodegrees, or loading up on student loan debt if you can edge out agaisnt the legacy/bribery admits. I think what people are really trying to solve is a cheaper credentialing system, that get's distorted by some of the incentives involved.

Gene_Parmesan 8y ago
> trying to compete with the credentialing system of universities Which gets even more difficult when places like Georgia Tech are offering fully accredited Masters of Science in Comp Sci programs, delivered fully online, for a grand total of $7500 in tuition. I don't think any sort of 'certificate' or accreditation approach was the right strategy for them. I was probably their prime candidate for paid certs -- I am a lawyer who self-studied CS for 4 years and just recently successfully switched careers to software dev. I took so many online courses -- Coursera, edX, MIT's OpenCourseWare, Stanford's online courses. In every interview I had, the interviewers were impressed by the fact I took such a variety of courses (I listed them on my resume, underneath my "real" education history.) But not a single one ever even asked if I had obtained any sort of certificates from them. No one cared, not even for a second. The whole story you want to tell when you go this way is, "I got the practical learning and experience I needed; I didn't go for an official degree because I felt the piece of paper wasn't worth the money." The proof (for potential employers) that you succeeded is in your abilities -- specifically, your portfolio of personal projects you create and are ready to present. Taking all those online courses shows initiative, curiosity, passion for the field; a certificate of any sort from some place like Udacity means less than nothing. Would it have mattered any more if it was accredited by some accrediting body? My intuition says no. Employers feel comfortable relying on traditional degrees because they're, well, traditional. There's the whole cultural significance of them, and of the experience of attending a four year program. But, right or wrong, the value of these degrees comes from the school name. Is it a nationally known school? Or a regionally known one? Is it a school in the city that your interviewer (or their coworkers) attended? But if you come to them with some accredited papers from Udacity, there is going to be a very wide respectability gap that will have to be crossed. It's not an inspiring approach, but I can't help but feel like a bland subscription model is probably the best they could have done. Maybe they could have become Google's Pluralsight or something. I think there's still definitely room for 'disruption' in the online education space, but I think it's probably going to look and feel a lot more like traditional higher ed than many might have thought 5 years ago -- even to the extent that I think we'll see traditional schools leading the way, because those traditional schools come to the starting block already carrying a lot of cachet. Why pay for a piece of paper if the name at the top means nothing?
- cinquemb 8y ago
  >Which gets even more difficult when places like Georgia Tech are offering fully accredited Masters of Science in Comp Sci programs, delivered fully online, for a grand total of $7500 in tuition… I don't think any sort of 'certificate' or accreditation approach was the right strategy for them… But not a single one ever even asked if I had obtained any sort of certificates from them. No one cared, not even for a second. I agree (my personal experience was similar as a dropout with regards to getting a onsite software jobs, pretty easy when staying away from Big Tech™), they needed some other way, and tried to fight a battle that even traditional schools are finding themselves needing to step into (at least for CS). >Would it have mattered any more if it was accredited by some accrediting body? My intuition says no. Employers feel comfortable relying on traditional degrees because they're, well, traditional. But, right or wrong As someone who is constantly looking for alternatives that will fit for me for the types of problems I want to work on, this is the part that sucks to deal with. I enjoyed working/contracting for research labs in different (neuroimaging and a chemical engineering lab) fields than I had when pursing an undergraduate degree that I was only able to get because of someone I knew who could not only identify my interest, but vouch for me personally. From my experience, in the real world there is space for exceptions, but they have to be hacked around now, as there is no clean path. Maybe there is some entrepreneur out there with the right network/skills who could build an online product that could deliver that. At this point, I can not be bothered paying to go through traditional academic routes because there is so much focus on optimizing for everything but moving a body of knowledge forward. When I see ed-tech companies try to emulate the existing system, I just have to laugh… at least until I see something different. I'm only 27, but I'd recommend to every future HS grad that wants more than the credential value of a degree and gives such a weight of 0, to just abandon all hope from getting that from universities.
dooes 8y ago
even if they get their credentialling system to be “accepted”, they have not solved the root issue which is the elephant in the room: their credentials are not trustworthy because anyone can easily cheat their tests. The other elephant in the room is that the rigor of their online courses. Education is not a one size fits all - you cannot offer the same from MIT vs community college no matter if the course content is the same. The difficulty (proxied by the reputation of the school) of the same courses vary wildly and dramatically, as does workload, peer support, TA support, exams, and even the pace and how the final grade is curved. By necessity they cannot grade difficultly, since they are trying to get people to pay for courses like they are dessert. By necessity they cannot offer different tiers of difficulty based on entrance exams or other tests, since they would insult their customer base (the intuitive argument being that those in most need of such nanodegrees are inversely the ones who may do worse in general).
- povertyworld 8y ago
  The projects are certainly as rigorous anything you will get in any undergrad degree. The difference is the grading system. With Udacity, you have to hit every deliverable as if it were a paid contract, but you can keep going 'till you hit them all, since there's no deadline. In college, there's a deadline, but you can skip that one thing you couldn't quite get working, and still move on with a 'B', etc.
  - dooes 8y ago
    Deadlines matter a lot in increasing difficult (but also helps with efficiency). Especially when compounded with multiple courses.
    - povertyworld 8y ago
      I think that's true. Deadlines do have some pedagogical value. When I did Udacity, it was pay by month, so there was a sense of time pressure in that every extra month burned cash. I think they switched to the flat fee now because too many people were blazing through in 2-4 months which is too bad because it took out the admittedly low pressure time aspect of the program.

christudor 8y ago

This. One of the strangest things about the MOOC boom in 2012/13 was the fact that so much of what they were doing already existed. Taking a pre-existing paid-for product and giving it away for free is not innovation, especially when you can only give it away for free because of external funding.

debacle 8y ago
Finding a way to provide quality, accredited credit hours for 1/5th of what you'd pay at a community college, and at the same time opening the doors to federal funding dollars, should have been a paramount goal.
- povertyworld 8y ago
  The problem is if it's accredited then instead of just offering reviewed "iterate till you pass" programming projects, they will have to have high stakes "cram and regurgitate" style exams which are a staple of accredited higher ed. If you go for that stuff, why not just enroll in a university somewhere?
  - dooes 8y ago
    That is precisely the conclusion the market has come to, and why they are having issues. Though their target audience is actually the professional working folk.. who don’t have the motivation and time to work on deadlines projects or the willpower to finish non deadlines projects and hw. Overall the business case seems difficult
    - tdhz77 8y ago
      Dr. David Harpool talks about this in his book survivor college. Basically argues that the market aka the board makes horrible decisions for education. Survivor College https://www.amazon.com/dp/1593300670/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_mYxRCbMQTSQRW https://www.amazon.com/dp/1593300670/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_mY...
    - indigochill 8y ago

povertyworld 8y ago

When you watch a class on youtube no one is reviewing your projects. Obviously that is the difference. Do you think someone who watches CS193P on youtube is going to get the same out of it as someone who does the iOS nanodegree?

colmvp 8y ago
I would guess CS193P is probably more in depth just in their lecture content alone than the Nanodegree lecture content. And I can't speak to every Nanodegree, but the projects I worked on in my Nanodegree were 'easy' enough that it wasn't hard for the reviewers to mark. There wasn't a ton of room for creativity. Most importantly, their feedback was pretty mixed in terms of how in-depth they went. Often, they'd just link me to posts from other real-life experts to the point where I felt like I was getting most of the 'juice' from outside of Udacity.
- povertyworld 8y ago
  CS193P is a few lectures on Swift, a couple on MVC, and then the rest is just a different part of the iOS SDK every day. It's certainly good, and whenever they publish a new semester, I watch it, but it's not like there's some special Stanford magic there.