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Saying that A/B testing is just different colors for buttons is intentionally ignoring the past 10 years of facebooks development process. Every single aspect o

by ixtli 8y ago

Saying that A/B testing is just different colors for buttons is intentionally ignoring the past 10 years of facebooks development process. Every single aspect of the platform is AB tested and that platform has a big effect on peoples lives.

hackinthebochs 8y ago
I'm still confused about why I'm supposed to be upset that Facebook A/B tests their features on their users. It seems to me that if they're allowed to do either A or B, they're allowed to measure the influence of A vs B. I don't see where the outrage is.
- steve76 8y ago
  Open access to the default phonebook, and everyone's can be made to look different. If it is in the Senate, someone is doing it. They hear about active intelligence. Target the psycho demographic, and get them to drive by your house. Get striking workers madder. Dump a few thousand in vice ads, and destroy a city to get one person. It's used to go after threats they know, not to trip up good people.
- ixtli 8y ago
  As I said in another comment this is about consent. It's not that the testing the conversion rates of button a versus button b is in and of itself immoral, it's that experimenting on people without their informed consent, under any circumstances, is. I'm intimately familiar with FBs platform as a developer and a user and its my intuition that 9/10 people aren't aware of the degree to which they are being experimented on via multivariate testing and I think a reasonable person would say they have a right to be informed of this. Another note is that after years of using the platform I can tell that when non-technical people DO become aware of the fact that their experience using the application is sometimes fundamentally different from others because they're in a non-control bucket they generally react pretty negatively to the notion. Sure, some of this is the standard "users always hate every UI change no matter what it is" syndrome but I've noted a lot of "this is creepy and i wonder how much it's been happening before" which is, imo, a super legitimate response, and shouldn't be disregarded because its inconvenient for fb to get consent.
  - sdenton4 8y ago
    Feature experiments are also a thing that exists. I want to deploy a new widget, and need to check that it works, and hasn't done something unexpected that drives users away. Experiments are how you do it. How about these: Are corner stores allowed to experiment with pricing? Are restaurants allowed to experiment with new menus? These are experiments involving humans. Are you just asking for poorly designed experiments? What you're asking for is companies to launch once and never know if it worked. And indeed, software used to be like that, and it sucked...
    - flukus 8y ago
      > Feature experiments are also a thing that exists. I want to deploy a new widget, and need to check that it works, and hasn't done something unexpected that drives users away. Experiments are how you do it. Experiments and experiments on live non-consenting users are two different things. > How about these: Are corner stores allowed to experiment with pricing? Are restaurants allowed to experiment with new menus? These are experiments involving humans. Are you just asking for poorly designed experiments? Let a corner store charge different people different prices and let me know how far you get. The also have to deal with consequences fro their experiments, if a customer sees the price of an item has double in an experiment they're unlikely to come back, there's an asymmetry issue and not coming back is often not an option you have in an environment with lock-in and network effects. > What you're asking for is companies to launch once and never know if it worked. And indeed, software used to be like that, and it sucked... Yes, developers had to think through design decisions, stick to well defined HIG's and use controlled test groups, truly a dark age.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - antidesitter 8y ago
        > Let a corner store charge different people different prices and let me know how far you get. Well, under your proposal they can’t know how far they’ll get. > Yes, developers had to think through design decisions, stick to well defined HIG's and use controlled test groups Well, did they? To a greater extent than today?
- tremon 8y ago
  You shouldn't be upset about that. You should be upset that Facebook is performing tests on its users to optimize against the interests of those same users, without letting the user know what they're doing.
baroffoos 8y ago
These mega websites should probably be held to a different standard to the rest. No ones life is changing when I try out different colors but some of the stuff facebook is testing is very unethical.
- ken 8y ago
  I think the standard shouldn't be size, but type of software. Facebook is a platform. People expect (reasonably or not) some element of stability in a platform. I don't want even a small platform doing tests on me and my data. But if it's a game, or a blog? Knock yourself out, no matter how big it is.
  - ixtli 8y ago
    I agree with you but personally I dont see how its so onerous for blizzard or rockstar to tell me in plain language what it intends to do with its behavior tracking (or really that its tracking my behavior at all.) For me this is about consent, and I'm willing to consent to things that I'm made aware of. I mean, I'm a software developer too, I know there are legitimate use-cases here.

by ixtli 8y ago

hackinthebochs 8y ago

I'm still confused about why I'm supposed to be upset that Facebook A/B tests their features on their users. It seems to me that if they're allowed to do either A or B, they're allowed to measure the influence of A vs B. I don't see where the outrage is.

steve76 8y ago
Open access to the default phonebook, and everyone's can be made to look different. If it is in the Senate, someone is doing it. They hear about active intelligence. Target the psycho demographic, and get them to drive by your house. Get striking workers madder. Dump a few thousand in vice ads, and destroy a city to get one person. It's used to go after threats they know, not to trip up good people.
ixtli 8y ago
As I said in another comment this is about consent. It's not that the testing the conversion rates of button a versus button b is in and of itself immoral, it's that experimenting on people without their informed consent, under any circumstances, is. I'm intimately familiar with FBs platform as a developer and a user and its my intuition that 9/10 people aren't aware of the degree to which they are being experimented on via multivariate testing and I think a reasonable person would say they have a right to be informed of this. Another note is that after years of using the platform I can tell that when non-technical people DO become aware of the fact that their experience using the application is sometimes fundamentally different from others because they're in a non-control bucket they generally react pretty negatively to the notion. Sure, some of this is the standard "users always hate every UI change no matter what it is" syndrome but I've noted a lot of "this is creepy and i wonder how much it's been happening before" which is, imo, a super legitimate response, and shouldn't be disregarded because its inconvenient for fb to get consent.
- sdenton4 8y ago
  Feature experiments are also a thing that exists. I want to deploy a new widget, and need to check that it works, and hasn't done something unexpected that drives users away. Experiments are how you do it. How about these: Are corner stores allowed to experiment with pricing? Are restaurants allowed to experiment with new menus? These are experiments involving humans. Are you just asking for poorly designed experiments? What you're asking for is companies to launch once and never know if it worked. And indeed, software used to be like that, and it sucked...
  - flukus 8y ago
    > Feature experiments are also a thing that exists. I want to deploy a new widget, and need to check that it works, and hasn't done something unexpected that drives users away. Experiments are how you do it. Experiments and experiments on live non-consenting users are two different things. > How about these: Are corner stores allowed to experiment with pricing? Are restaurants allowed to experiment with new menus? These are experiments involving humans. Are you just asking for poorly designed experiments? Let a corner store charge different people different prices and let me know how far you get. The also have to deal with consequences fro their experiments, if a customer sees the price of an item has double in an experiment they're unlikely to come back, there's an asymmetry issue and not coming back is often not an option you have in an environment with lock-in and network effects. > What you're asking for is companies to launch once and never know if it worked. And indeed, software used to be like that, and it sucked... Yes, developers had to think through design decisions, stick to well defined HIG's and use controlled test groups, truly a dark age.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - antidesitter 8y ago
      > Let a corner store charge different people different prices and let me know how far you get. Well, under your proposal they can’t know how far they’ll get. > Yes, developers had to think through design decisions, stick to well defined HIG's and use controlled test groups Well, did they? To a greater extent than today?
tremon 8y ago
You shouldn't be upset about that. You should be upset that Facebook is performing tests on its users to optimize against the interests of those same users, without letting the user know what they're doing.

baroffoos 8y ago

These mega websites should probably be held to a different standard to the rest. No ones life is changing when I try out different colors but some of the stuff facebook is testing is very unethical.

ken 8y ago
I think the standard shouldn't be size, but type of software. Facebook is a platform. People expect (reasonably or not) some element of stability in a platform. I don't want even a small platform doing tests on me and my data. But if it's a game, or a blog? Knock yourself out, no matter how big it is.
- ixtli 8y ago
  I agree with you but personally I dont see how its so onerous for blizzard or rockstar to tell me in plain language what it intends to do with its behavior tracking (or really that its tracking my behavior at all.) For me this is about consent, and I'm willing to consent to things that I'm made aware of. I mean, I'm a software developer too, I know there are legitimate use-cases here.