4 ms·

That is the kind of busy-body, authoritarian crap that makes children hate school. Kids are there to learn. Given him a talking to, ask him to give up the goods

That is the kind of busy-body, authoritarian crap that makes children hate school. Kids are there to learn. Given him a talking to, ask him to give up the goods, and move on. Having been one of them high school hackers, and having been both threatened with jail and simultaneously being given the carrot of "don't do it again, and tell us what you know," the latter is going to produce a better outcome and if the student chooses to pick the former... well you gave them an honest choice. Most kids doing this aren't malicious, but just trying to learn and have some damn fun. If you just jump straight to the stick, you're just going to end up with a bitter kid with some cybersecurity chops. Not the greatest combination.

kelnos 8y ago
I don't think I would characterize "attempting to steal a student election via unauthorized use of other students' accounts to commit voter fraud" as "trying to learn and have some damn fun". This was a malicious, dishonest act. Full stop. I think they're getting off easy: just being disqualified from the election and perhaps losing in-school computer privileges. That doesn't seem like it's going to teach them what they did was wrong. More likely it'll teach them to be better at not getting caught.
- godelski 8y ago
  I mean Bill Gates phreaked because it was "fun". The people that do this find it fun breaking into systems. You need to understand who you're dealing with. And understanding the motives of preparators helps in how you should discipline them. At least effective discipline.
  - mieseratte 8y ago
    > You need to understand who you're dealing with. And that's the point. You're dealing with smart, misguided youth with a literal hacker mindset. You'd hope this wouldn't need explaining on Hacker News, but here we are... Having been in this kid's shoes many beers ago, I technically committed major felonies. The District flipped a lid, mind you I'd been reporting vulnerabilities two years, when I gained access to their server with their financials and PII. Wasn't doing it because I wanted to sell my shit-heel English teacher's identity to Russian cybercriminals... no... I was having fun learning and discovering this fucking awesome world of computers. Those of y'all acting as if this kid if a real piece of work need to check your outlook. That is some real "get off my lawn" stuff. He's a high schooler, and capable enough to pull this crap off. Show him the right path, turn it into a teaching (it's school, y'all) moment, and if he doesn't want to walk the right path then who are we kidding, a detention isn't going to change that outlook anyway.
    - jimrhods23 8y ago
      "when I gained access to their server with their financials and PII" The problem with your attitude is that you have become the authoritarian in this situation. The district wasn't interested in fixing their security issues (their right), and you didn't like this, so you went ahead and broke into their systems anyway. "I was having fun learning and discovering this fucking awesome world of computers." There are plenty of other ways to do this. "He's a high schooler, and capable enough to pull this crap off. Show him the right path, turn it into a teaching (it's school, y'all) moment" A teaching moment would be punishment. Maybe a suspension. In the real world, you can't just trample on others' rights, without some sort of repercussions.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - jacoblambda 8y ago
        That doesn't make them the authoritarian. By the way they are talking they obviously weren't writing ransom notes and holding the school hostage, they were poking around and exploring. While I can't say for sure, they likely just left a note saying "hey you should probably fix this" and the administration lost their shit. Also a teaching moment surely isn't a suspension. That's how you burn any bridges towards getting the kid to learn. You said that in the real world you can't trample others' rights, well sure but it's kind of the point that high school isn't the real world. A teaching moment would be sitting someone down, getting them to admit/explain what they did, telling them that in the real world they would get in trouble, and pointing them towards a better outlet. Teach them what it means to be a white hat and send them on their way.
      - mieseratte 8y ago
        > The problem with your attitude is that you have become the authoritarian in this situation. The district wasn't interested in fixing their security issues (their right), and you didn't like this, so you went ahead and broke into their systems anyway. I wasn't holding anything hostage. I didn't tell them "Fix it or else." I'd been reporting vulnerabilities I'd been finding. Found more. Reported 'em. > In the real world, you can't just trample on others' rights, without some sort of repercussions. Sounds like you've never lived in the real world. Again, it's high-school. You seriously have no idea how to incentivize this type of kid.
  - kelnos 8y ago
    Obviously I don't know the kid at all, but on the face of it, it appears he wanted to win an election and decided to cheat to get what he wanted. Hardly "just for funsies" or "following the hacker ethos". It's just a morally-challenged kid behaving badly.
    - nkrisc 8y ago
      So what do you do with badly behaving kids? Whip them with a belt or show them the right path? If the kid's rotten, he's rotten. But more than likely he's not truly a bad person and can redeem himself.
    - ilikehurdles 8y ago
      A student election is absolutely worthless. This is not like stealing money from a convenience store — that has value - it’s more like taking home a paperclip from your office once. I see absolutely no reason that someone taking an office supply item home should be treated differently.
      - kelnos 8y ago
        To kids in school, the election is not worthless. Even when I was in HS that wasn't the case, and the article mentions that with college admissions so competitive now, every edge -- including being elected to a student government -- is important. Even if it's not actually important, it's the perception of importance to the student that matters. The idea that "it's ok to commit fraud if I think it's something important" is definitely one we don't want becoming widespread.
  - close04 8y ago
    The moment you get mitigating circumstances because you just did it for fun is the moment when everybody starts doing it "for fun". Plenty of crimes might have a "thrill" component. This doesn't justify them at all. The guy accessed other people's email accounts. The punishment for "hacking the elections" is one thing, accessing someone's email account goes way beyond that. So even comparing it to abusing a paper ballot system is not at all appropriate. It's comparable to someone opening up your mailbox, reading your mail, then sending some in your name. For fun.
- nitrogen 8y ago
  Student elections serve no purpose other than to decide who gets to wear the fancy jackets. Normally the election is rigged by having more money to give out free candy and make better posters. Sounds like someone just found a way other than money. If you actually cared about school smarts in a high school election, winning without being popular seems like a better sign of it.
  - kelnos 8y ago
    Winning by doing something unethical isn't exactly a positive message to send to a high school kid, though, no?
    - nitrogen 8y ago
      When was high school ever positive, especially a student office election? The only ethical thing to do is to disrupt it a bit.
      - kelnos 8y ago
        That's a pretty unproductive view, though. You're not making anyone's life better by going down that path.
        nitrogen 8y ago
        If you value truth over ignorance, then exposing high school and its elections for the farces that they are is making people's lives better. Allowing students to find their own paths to fulfillment instead of relying on a silly popularity contest seems plenty productive to me. Among countless other problems, high school elections promulgate the idea that there can be only one hierarchy, that there is a group of "betters" that should comprise that hierarchy, and that the only measure of merit in that hierarchy is popularity.
- yomly 8y ago
  If you believe that most human concepts are lessons that need to be learned, be that calculus or morality/socially acceptable behaviours then it follows that not all students will respond equally to a given teaching method. Just as we're discovering that some students given some patience and different explanations can flourish at maths late on in their "education", perhaps the same can be true for individuals and them learning their lessons when it comes to ethics. This story resonates somewhat with me as I was definitely a problem-teenager but have since mellowed out substantially, thankfully without ever encountering trajectory-altering consequences (although probably deserving to in some ways) When I look back I simply wasn't engaged/challenged in the right ways and was looking for every opportunity to challenge myself - even pushing the limits of authority was a source of enjoyment and punishment was almost a reward for me: I never really responded positively to punishment and definitely didn't learn anything from them. This became really obvious to me after I had the following observations: - at high school I was highly disruptive - at college I was fully engaged because the environment was academically challenging - many years after at coding bootcamp I felt some of the old teenage urges to disrupt bubbling under the surface when classes were too slow (thankfully I know much better than to act on them now) So I guess my point is that it feels natural to condemn the individual, but we really don't know anything about them or their circumstances, and with my educator hat on, I'd rather assume a misguided individual and challenge myself to find a way to teach a new lesson than opt for the easy way out and condemn them with some kind of heavy punishment (like expulsion). Perhaps in this case some of the following may be useful lessons: - some labour-intensive efforts that directly relate to cleaning up the mess of security breaches and election counting - work on fixing vulnerabilities of the school network (if money were no issue, have the student try to protect the school against a pen-tester, in the hopes of establishing some empathy for the difficulties of being a time-poor underpaid school sysadmin, or at the least have some constructively directed black/white-hat energy) - find some relatable issues on the morality / pain of vote rigging and have the student study them
- nkrisc 8y ago
  I think the punishment you described does a better job of teaching them to not get caught. My suggestion turns it into an opportunity for them to learn why it was wrong and to help make amends for the harm they caused. Rehabilitation versus retribution.

kelnos 8y ago

I don't think I would characterize "attempting to steal a student election via unauthorized use of other students' accounts to commit voter fraud" as "trying to learn and have some damn fun". This was a malicious, dishonest act. Full stop. I think they're getting off easy: just being disqualified from the election and perhaps losing in-school computer privileges. That doesn't seem like it's going to teach them what they did was wrong. More likely it'll teach them to be better at not getting caught.

godelski 8y ago
I mean Bill Gates phreaked because it was "fun". The people that do this find it fun breaking into systems. You need to understand who you're dealing with. And understanding the motives of preparators helps in how you should discipline them. At least effective discipline.
- mieseratte 8y ago
  > You need to understand who you're dealing with. And that's the point. You're dealing with smart, misguided youth with a literal hacker mindset. You'd hope this wouldn't need explaining on Hacker News, but here we are... Having been in this kid's shoes many beers ago, I technically committed major felonies. The District flipped a lid, mind you I'd been reporting vulnerabilities two years, when I gained access to their server with their financials and PII. Wasn't doing it because I wanted to sell my shit-heel English teacher's identity to Russian cybercriminals... no... I was having fun learning and discovering this fucking awesome world of computers. Those of y'all acting as if this kid if a real piece of work need to check your outlook. That is some real "get off my lawn" stuff. He's a high schooler, and capable enough to pull this crap off. Show him the right path, turn it into a teaching (it's school, y'all) moment, and if he doesn't want to walk the right path then who are we kidding, a detention isn't going to change that outlook anyway.
  - jimrhods23 8y ago
    "when I gained access to their server with their financials and PII" The problem with your attitude is that you have become the authoritarian in this situation. The district wasn't interested in fixing their security issues (their right), and you didn't like this, so you went ahead and broke into their systems anyway. "I was having fun learning and discovering this fucking awesome world of computers." There are plenty of other ways to do this. "He's a high schooler, and capable enough to pull this crap off. Show him the right path, turn it into a teaching (it's school, y'all) moment" A teaching moment would be punishment. Maybe a suspension. In the real world, you can't just trample on others' rights, without some sort of repercussions.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - jacoblambda 8y ago
      That doesn't make them the authoritarian. By the way they are talking they obviously weren't writing ransom notes and holding the school hostage, they were poking around and exploring. While I can't say for sure, they likely just left a note saying "hey you should probably fix this" and the administration lost their shit. Also a teaching moment surely isn't a suspension. That's how you burn any bridges towards getting the kid to learn. You said that in the real world you can't trample others' rights, well sure but it's kind of the point that high school isn't the real world. A teaching moment would be sitting someone down, getting them to admit/explain what they did, telling them that in the real world they would get in trouble, and pointing them towards a better outlet. Teach them what it means to be a white hat and send them on their way.
    - mieseratte 8y ago
      > The problem with your attitude is that you have become the authoritarian in this situation. The district wasn't interested in fixing their security issues (their right), and you didn't like this, so you went ahead and broke into their systems anyway. I wasn't holding anything hostage. I didn't tell them "Fix it or else." I'd been reporting vulnerabilities I'd been finding. Found more. Reported 'em. > In the real world, you can't just trample on others' rights, without some sort of repercussions. Sounds like you've never lived in the real world. Again, it's high-school. You seriously have no idea how to incentivize this type of kid.
- kelnos 8y ago
  Obviously I don't know the kid at all, but on the face of it, it appears he wanted to win an election and decided to cheat to get what he wanted. Hardly "just for funsies" or "following the hacker ethos". It's just a morally-challenged kid behaving badly.
  - nkrisc 8y ago
    So what do you do with badly behaving kids? Whip them with a belt or show them the right path? If the kid's rotten, he's rotten. But more than likely he's not truly a bad person and can redeem himself.
  - ilikehurdles 8y ago
    A student election is absolutely worthless. This is not like stealing money from a convenience store — that has value - it’s more like taking home a paperclip from your office once. I see absolutely no reason that someone taking an office supply item home should be treated differently.
    - kelnos 8y ago
      To kids in school, the election is not worthless. Even when I was in HS that wasn't the case, and the article mentions that with college admissions so competitive now, every edge -- including being elected to a student government -- is important. Even if it's not actually important, it's the perception of importance to the student that matters. The idea that "it's ok to commit fraud if I think it's something important" is definitely one we don't want becoming widespread.
- close04 8y ago
  The moment you get mitigating circumstances because you just did it for fun is the moment when everybody starts doing it "for fun". Plenty of crimes might have a "thrill" component. This doesn't justify them at all. The guy accessed other people's email accounts. The punishment for "hacking the elections" is one thing, accessing someone's email account goes way beyond that. So even comparing it to abusing a paper ballot system is not at all appropriate. It's comparable to someone opening up your mailbox, reading your mail, then sending some in your name. For fun.
nitrogen 8y ago
Student elections serve no purpose other than to decide who gets to wear the fancy jackets. Normally the election is rigged by having more money to give out free candy and make better posters. Sounds like someone just found a way other than money. If you actually cared about school smarts in a high school election, winning without being popular seems like a better sign of it.
- kelnos 8y ago
  Winning by doing something unethical isn't exactly a positive message to send to a high school kid, though, no?
  - nitrogen 8y ago
    When was high school ever positive, especially a student office election? The only ethical thing to do is to disrupt it a bit.
    - kelnos 8y ago
      That's a pretty unproductive view, though. You're not making anyone's life better by going down that path.
      - nitrogen 8y ago
        If you value truth over ignorance, then exposing high school and its elections for the farces that they are is making people's lives better. Allowing students to find their own paths to fulfillment instead of relying on a silly popularity contest seems plenty productive to me. Among countless other problems, high school elections promulgate the idea that there can be only one hierarchy, that there is a group of "betters" that should comprise that hierarchy, and that the only measure of merit in that hierarchy is popularity.
yomly 8y ago
If you believe that most human concepts are lessons that need to be learned, be that calculus or morality/socially acceptable behaviours then it follows that not all students will respond equally to a given teaching method. Just as we're discovering that some students given some patience and different explanations can flourish at maths late on in their "education", perhaps the same can be true for individuals and them learning their lessons when it comes to ethics. This story resonates somewhat with me as I was definitely a problem-teenager but have since mellowed out substantially, thankfully without ever encountering trajectory-altering consequences (although probably deserving to in some ways) When I look back I simply wasn't engaged/challenged in the right ways and was looking for every opportunity to challenge myself - even pushing the limits of authority was a source of enjoyment and punishment was almost a reward for me: I never really responded positively to punishment and definitely didn't learn anything from them. This became really obvious to me after I had the following observations: - at high school I was highly disruptive - at college I was fully engaged because the environment was academically challenging - many years after at coding bootcamp I felt some of the old teenage urges to disrupt bubbling under the surface when classes were too slow (thankfully I know much better than to act on them now) So I guess my point is that it feels natural to condemn the individual, but we really don't know anything about them or their circumstances, and with my educator hat on, I'd rather assume a misguided individual and challenge myself to find a way to teach a new lesson than opt for the easy way out and condemn them with some kind of heavy punishment (like expulsion). Perhaps in this case some of the following may be useful lessons: - some labour-intensive efforts that directly relate to cleaning up the mess of security breaches and election counting - work on fixing vulnerabilities of the school network (if money were no issue, have the student try to protect the school against a pen-tester, in the hopes of establishing some empathy for the difficulties of being a time-poor underpaid school sysadmin, or at the least have some constructively directed black/white-hat energy) - find some relatable issues on the morality / pain of vote rigging and have the student study them
nkrisc 8y ago
I think the punishment you described does a better job of teaching them to not get caught. My suggestion turns it into an opportunity for them to learn why it was wrong and to help make amends for the harm they caused. Rehabilitation versus retribution.