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I'm suggesting the students be punished in the same way as if they had cheated on a paper ballot election. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't think it's a str

I'm suggesting the students be punished in the same way as if they had cheated on a paper ballot election. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't think it's a stretch to think that HS students should know better than to cheat - whether that's on a test, or a school-wide election.

nkrisc 8y ago
That's a fair point of view. However I think school should focus less on punishment and more on learning wherever possible. I'm suggesting that instead of punishment this could be opportunity for all to learn.
- Gpetrium 8y ago
  A punishment can often be used as a form of learning. By punishing the individual, he gets a chance to better understand the costs associated with doing such acts. At the same time, if it becomes public enough (or teachers decide to anonymize and make it a use case), others may get a chance to see an example of what not to do. The case can also be used by the school and other entities to improve security, etc. The biggest loss of all would be to put it under the rug.
  - citrablue 8y ago
    Punishments are effective at teaching people to not get caught. They put the offender on the defensive, which is a hard place to learn the right lessons from.
    - isoskeles 8y ago
      Oh okay, so a better way to correct the behavior would be... "Johnny it's really KEWL that you rigged the election, but it also made us sad. Please don't ever do it again."
      - rmdashrfstar 8y ago
        Or, treat this student as an individual and a real person, learn to not talk so condescendingly about others, and encourage this person to make constructive and better use of their rare and unique intellectual capabilities and work ethic. You attract more flies with honey than vinegar. Good luck to the society whom discourages young outside-the-box thinkers and bright minds from pursuing intellectual passions within STEM. This is a huge problem in the US and it's culture around education.
        isoskeles 8y ago
        > Treat this student as an individual and a real person Treat everyone else as an individual and real person. If this were not what amounted to a pointless election and therefore a dumb prank, there could be real consequences. Some jackass screwed around with his high school election, sure, I don't think a severe punishment is in order. Suspension? Detention? Sure, whatever. You think that individual's individuality is supposed to somehow put him in front of everyone else affected by his actions? Or is it the fact that someone is interested in STEM, that makes them special? There is sometimes a victim of actions (in this case, other people running, other people voting). You write as if they don't matter or exist.
mieseratte 8y ago
That is the kind of busy-body, authoritarian crap that makes children hate school. Kids are there to learn. Given him a talking to, ask him to give up the goods, and move on. Having been one of them high school hackers, and having been both threatened with jail and simultaneously being given the carrot of "don't do it again, and tell us what you know," the latter is going to produce a better outcome and if the student chooses to pick the former... well you gave them an honest choice. Most kids doing this aren't malicious, but just trying to learn and have some damn fun. If you just jump straight to the stick, you're just going to end up with a bitter kid with some cybersecurity chops. Not the greatest combination.
- kelnos 8y ago
  I don't think I would characterize "attempting to steal a student election via unauthorized use of other students' accounts to commit voter fraud" as "trying to learn and have some damn fun". This was a malicious, dishonest act. Full stop. I think they're getting off easy: just being disqualified from the election and perhaps losing in-school computer privileges. That doesn't seem like it's going to teach them what they did was wrong. More likely it'll teach them to be better at not getting caught.
  - godelski 8y ago
    I mean Bill Gates phreaked because it was "fun". The people that do this find it fun breaking into systems. You need to understand who you're dealing with. And understanding the motives of preparators helps in how you should discipline them. At least effective discipline.
    - mieseratte 8y ago
      > You need to understand who you're dealing with. And that's the point. You're dealing with smart, misguided youth with a literal hacker mindset. You'd hope this wouldn't need explaining on Hacker News, but here we are... Having been in this kid's shoes many beers ago, I technically committed major felonies. The District flipped a lid, mind you I'd been reporting vulnerabilities two years, when I gained access to their server with their financials and PII. Wasn't doing it because I wanted to sell my shit-heel English teacher's identity to Russian cybercriminals... no... I was having fun learning and discovering this fucking awesome world of computers. Those of y'all acting as if this kid if a real piece of work need to check your outlook. That is some real "get off my lawn" stuff. He's a high schooler, and capable enough to pull this crap off. Show him the right path, turn it into a teaching (it's school, y'all) moment, and if he doesn't want to walk the right path then who are we kidding, a detention isn't going to change that outlook anyway.

nkrisc 8y ago

That's a fair point of view. However I think school should focus less on punishment and more on learning wherever possible. I'm suggesting that instead of punishment this could be opportunity for all to learn.

Gpetrium 8y ago
A punishment can often be used as a form of learning. By punishing the individual, he gets a chance to better understand the costs associated with doing such acts. At the same time, if it becomes public enough (or teachers decide to anonymize and make it a use case), others may get a chance to see an example of what not to do. The case can also be used by the school and other entities to improve security, etc. The biggest loss of all would be to put it under the rug.
- citrablue 8y ago
  Punishments are effective at teaching people to not get caught. They put the offender on the defensive, which is a hard place to learn the right lessons from.
  - isoskeles 8y ago
    Oh okay, so a better way to correct the behavior would be... "Johnny it's really KEWL that you rigged the election, but it also made us sad. Please don't ever do it again."
    - rmdashrfstar 8y ago
      Or, treat this student as an individual and a real person, learn to not talk so condescendingly about others, and encourage this person to make constructive and better use of their rare and unique intellectual capabilities and work ethic. You attract more flies with honey than vinegar. Good luck to the society whom discourages young outside-the-box thinkers and bright minds from pursuing intellectual passions within STEM. This is a huge problem in the US and it's culture around education.
      - isoskeles 8y ago
        > Treat this student as an individual and a real person Treat everyone else as an individual and real person. If this were not what amounted to a pointless election and therefore a dumb prank, there could be real consequences. Some jackass screwed around with his high school election, sure, I don't think a severe punishment is in order. Suspension? Detention? Sure, whatever. You think that individual's individuality is supposed to somehow put him in front of everyone else affected by his actions? Or is it the fact that someone is interested in STEM, that makes them special? There is sometimes a victim of actions (in this case, other people running, other people voting). You write as if they don't matter or exist.

mieseratte 8y ago

That is the kind of busy-body, authoritarian crap that makes children hate school. Kids are there to learn. Given him a talking to, ask him to give up the goods, and move on. Having been one of them high school hackers, and having been both threatened with jail and simultaneously being given the carrot of "don't do it again, and tell us what you know," the latter is going to produce a better outcome and if the student chooses to pick the former... well you gave them an honest choice. Most kids doing this aren't malicious, but just trying to learn and have some damn fun. If you just jump straight to the stick, you're just going to end up with a bitter kid with some cybersecurity chops. Not the greatest combination.

kelnos 8y ago
I don't think I would characterize "attempting to steal a student election via unauthorized use of other students' accounts to commit voter fraud" as "trying to learn and have some damn fun". This was a malicious, dishonest act. Full stop. I think they're getting off easy: just being disqualified from the election and perhaps losing in-school computer privileges. That doesn't seem like it's going to teach them what they did was wrong. More likely it'll teach them to be better at not getting caught.
- godelski 8y ago
  I mean Bill Gates phreaked because it was "fun". The people that do this find it fun breaking into systems. You need to understand who you're dealing with. And understanding the motives of preparators helps in how you should discipline them. At least effective discipline.
  - mieseratte 8y ago
    > You need to understand who you're dealing with. And that's the point. You're dealing with smart, misguided youth with a literal hacker mindset. You'd hope this wouldn't need explaining on Hacker News, but here we are... Having been in this kid's shoes many beers ago, I technically committed major felonies. The District flipped a lid, mind you I'd been reporting vulnerabilities two years, when I gained access to their server with their financials and PII. Wasn't doing it because I wanted to sell my shit-heel English teacher's identity to Russian cybercriminals... no... I was having fun learning and discovering this fucking awesome world of computers. Those of y'all acting as if this kid if a real piece of work need to check your outlook. That is some real "get off my lawn" stuff. He's a high schooler, and capable enough to pull this crap off. Show him the right path, turn it into a teaching (it's school, y'all) moment, and if he doesn't want to walk the right path then who are we kidding, a detention isn't going to change that outlook anyway.