10 ms·

Withdrawing from the Microsoft MVP Program

226 points by chemodax 7y ago

nikanj 7y ago
Writing low-level magic and solving gnarly bugs seems to be linked to making hardware in the first place. Microsoft MVP is still a very west-centric program. If I had to guess, I'd wager the rising stars of this world are in Asia where the new hardware is being made. Microsoft doesn't really reach out to them, and I guess the feeling of disinterest is mutual.
jesseryoung 7y ago
> Where I used to get weekly updates, and focused, useful, invitations to what are called “Product Group Interactions” — stuff about the new WDK or changes to OS features — I now get an endless stream of invitations to SQL and SharePoint events. If I had to wager why it seems like the MVP program dieing (I have no clue if it is, this is the first post I've ever read about the MVP meta) it has to do with this point the author called out. I suspect that, at least in its early days, the MVP program help guide product development teams. In return for helping guide development, these MVP's were given preferential treatment over other customers and access to insider information. Now that Microsoft is (at least appearing) more open, they can get their feedback from their open source communities.
- WorldMaker 7y ago
  Not just open source communities, given that Microsoft spun out a lot of the "early interaction/feedback" stuff into the broader, easier to opt-in/opt-out Insider programs.
- wvenable 7y ago
  Even Stackoverflow kills the need for MS MVPs. In the dinosaur days before SO, you'd have MVPs answering questions around the Internet or within their particular community.
  - quickthrower2 7y ago
    Before SO you had to scroll down on ExpertSexChange
- logronoide 7y ago
  MVP is an anachronism. A legacy of the old Microsoft, when a monopoly had to build the entire community around his brand. Nowadays open communities cannot be driven, Microsoft knows this and I think the MVP program does not fit in this new Microsoft focused on services as it is.
mrmondo 7y ago
I've seen this first hand at several conferences where Microsoft "MVP"s come on to the stage and try to make Microsoft seem all "hip" and "rad" rather than talking about real engineering and technical improvements, it was not only nauseating - so many people could clearly see right through it.
- ta45345346 7y ago
  Lets also not forgot the decade and more that Gates, through sheer greed, set the IT industry back. I hope Microsoft withers and dies, and anyone employed by them, for their actions.
  - glitchc 7y ago
    Went a little off the deep end there, didn’t we?
  - cstrat 7y ago
    wow, that's extreme. I'm sure people working for msft back in the day had no idea what the bigger picture was. It's easy to say this stuff now (about msft setting the industry back etc) but when you're in amongst it you're just a cog in the machine. I'm sure most people working there just wanted to get paid and felt they were contributing to the biggest tech company in the world.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - unreal37 7y ago
    You created a throwaway for this?
asp_net 7y ago
I have been a Microsoft MVP from 2006-2018. While I was proud to be part of a group of so many smart people at the beginning, my professional and personal life changed over the years and I stopped blogging regularly, never engaged in their new web forums (which replaced the newsgroups – anyone remembers them? ;)) and finally filtered out all of the many emails and newsletters coming to my inbox. So I would say for 10 out of 12 years I have been a ghost. A ghost that has been "re-awarded" every year – for whatever reason. I think that alone tells you something about the value of that "title".
- ecmascript 7y ago
  Username checks out!
mythz 7y ago
The MVP program has become a marketing program to encourage becoming unpaid shills of Microsoft and MS products, where the best way in is to evangelize and write articles and tweets promoting Azure. Your social media presence is more of a factor for determining membership than any technical prowess. They've even used it to encourage members (behind closed doors) to shill Microsoft links [1]. [1] https://twitter.com/rickasaurus/status/636269822595235840 https://twitter.com/rickasaurus/status/636269822595235840
- anbop 7y ago
  Well the program was always for helping the broader community, whether by writing tools, or participating in StackOverflow, or whatever... it was never a “Hall of Fame” for the best Windows programmers.
  - mythz 7y ago
    It's about helping MS market their products by encouraging devs to pimp their tools/products under the guise of "technical excellence" that everyone used to look up to. An award for being one of MS's best pimpers just doesn't hold the same level of street cred. Now whenever I see someone wearing an MVP badge in their twitter bio I immediately discredit their pro-MS "advice" as an MVP shill wanting to score points towards their next renewal.
    - pknopf 7y ago
      Have you ever applied? But really, if the MVP program was what it is said to be, people like you'd be in it. ServiceStack has been a valuable contribution to the .NET community, and your continued development/support of it should defacto make you an MVP.
      - mythz 7y ago
        No, I wouldn't lend credence to a program that serves as an echo chamber to further insulate .NET's bubble. It's one of the marketing tools used to self-reinforce .NET's mono culture - which I view as the worst thing about .NET. It stopped being anything remotely to do with technical merit or being an "MVP" years ago. I'd prefer to see the program abolished, then maybe we'll start seeing more tech diversity in .NET.
smith-kyle 7y ago
A few years ago I told my friend "If I ever add 'Microsoft MVP' to my Twitter bio shoot me" I don't know why seeing this made me cringe so much. Probably because it was so transparently a ploy from Microsoft to make their most loyal devs feel special in hopes that they'd promote Microsoft tools more.
- TomMarius 7y ago
  Hmm, but you can't say that many people hadn't had great experiences with it.
c0achmcguirk 7y ago
I remember the battle between Jamie Cansdale and Microsoft regarding Jamie's MVP status [1]. The TL;DR was that Jamie developed TestDriven.NET as an add-on to Visual Studio. He released it for the pay versions and the free version: Visual Studio Express. Microsoft wanted him to make it unavailable for Express and decided to kick him out of the MVP program because they didn't want nice features in the free version of Visual Studio. ;) [1] https://www.infoq.com/news/2007/06/TestDriven-Express-Emails https://www.infoq.com/news/2007/06/TestDriven-Express-Emails
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- otis_inf 7y ago
  They also kicked out Karl Peterson, who designed the first MVP logo (the diamond with the large MVP inside it) and wrote about 3000+ reply posts a year in various visual basic groups. The reason? He was a VB6 MVP and very vocal against VB.NET. Yes, you can't have the spear head of a community you just kicked in the nuts with a 'VB.NET' in the program that is designed to promote that successor tech, now can we...
cryptokernel 7y ago
Congratulations! Earn crypto here: https://coincircle.com/l/50VVxbObg3 https://coincircle.com/l/50VVxbObg3
Insanity 7y ago
Sounds like it is similar to the MSP program now then.
miaklesp 7y ago
What's the practical function of MVP in the era of GitHub and open source where everyone can join discussion with devs and PMs without a need to be part of any elitist group? Just to keep a handful of folks still proud of their MVP badges they earned in 2001?
- pknopf 7y ago
  People like to add it to their Twitter bios and be a part of an echo chamber.
- munchbunny 7y ago
  Are you asking why social validation is a useful tool for getting people to be helpful with thorny or esoteric technical questions? Regardless of whether I think the MVP program was good, your question answers itself.
- unreal37 7y ago
  There are thousands of people still proud of their MVP badges. You vastly underestimate their worth. It's like being given a blue checkmark from Twitter or Instagram. People want it.
lennpryor 7y ago
Hi, I’m Lenn from Microsoft, and I have responsibility for the MVP program. I appreciate the feedback, and apologize that we didn’t respond to your earlier emails. We will get back to you directly to address your questions and concerns. The MVP program does evolve over time and our goal is to ensure that it stays relevant and meaningful for participants. On behalf of Microsoft, we really appreciate your support of the program and community.
- Nextgrid 7y ago
  What a BS response. Now I don’t mean this personally (I’m sure you just wish the best to all of us just like most people here) but it doesn’t take anything away from the main point which is that the company can’t even be bothered to respond officially and the best this “MVP” can hope for is an unofficial acknowledgement from an employee outside of work time.
  - lennpryor 7y ago
    My team did indeed miss the email from Pete unfortunately, I am not afraid to admit it. We feel bad about it and have sent him a personal apology that he didn't get a reply after 15 years. We are heads down reviewing 3,300 MVP renewal applications until the end of May and his CPM missed it in the flood of emails that comes her way this time of year. Our bad, and we own it and are sorry we made him feel disrespected for his 15 years of contributions to the community and Microsoft.
    - hizanberg 7y ago
      s/email/emails
      - RyJones 7y ago
        Lenn Pryor did say emails in the parent reply. "Email" is used both as a singular and plural, so I don't think his later reply is wrong, either.
ww520 7y ago
The Windows kernel driver development was one of the most hardcore programming in software development, requiring in depth knowledge of the kernel and a very different mindset. Have to be very defensive and thorough, or things would go badly.
j16sdiz 7y ago
Ten years ago, when I see a MVP give technical advice (they seldom do), they are very helpful. Now when I see technical advice from mvp, I wonder if they had ever read the manual...
peteforde 7y ago
Before ASP came out, I wrote a DLL to connect IIS to VB5/6 applications. I was also the VB guide on The Mining Company (which became about.com around 1997). This was enough of a resume that I was awarded the title MVP for IIS/ASP. I got a watch, notepad and pen. Seemed pretty cool for an 18 year old in smalltown Ontario. Eventually, they announced that VB6 was the end of the line for COM and VB.net was VB in name alone. I was one of about 100 MVPs that signed a petition encouraging MSFT to keep VB moving forward as a parallel product. "No, and stop asking" was the reply. Fast forward a few years, and I saw the original DHH "Build a blog in 15 minutes with Ruby on Rails" video. What I saw didn't even seem possible. I knew that it was going to be a big deal, and the next day my friends and I cofounded the first Rails consultancy in the world circa Fall 2004. This led to my first Mac Mini, and deploying to Linux. Today I only boot into Windows to do VR and hologram stuff. I haven't thought about my MVP certificate in over a decade, but I'm confident that it exists in a box. I'm honestly a little shocked to know that it's been going all this time.
hateful 7y ago
This is completely understandable. I've submitted for MVP for a product (not Microsoft, but built on Microsoft technologies) and I never get it due to the fact that I don't re-tweet all day and focus on development.
- sk5t 7y ago
  Ditto. I was twice nominated a while back, by existing MVPs, didn't get it, and had the distinct sense it was because I didn't tweet or run webinars or whatever to the glory of MSFT. What I did do was write and release some pretty decent free tools with .NET, and participated extensively on anything to do with Active Directory or ADFS. It was rather demoralizing.
werber 7y ago
I wasn't aware of the program till recently and just thought it was a marketing gimmick for vaguely technical people who can throw a little open source varnish on the company.
hudo 7y ago
no response from PM, amazing! I've been MVP for (just) 6y, 2012-2016, and probably replaced that many community PMs, and few categories also, that I didn't know where I belong any more. And last year, when I thought I did my biggest contribution by organizing workshops and meetup talks, writing OSS, and finally got great feedback from real people, not just page views of blog or twitter reach, they called me and said its not enough. And that I can apply next year when I do more of the things they measure, whatever that is this year! I just don't care any more.
maxheadroom 7y ago
Let's face it, MSFT is dropping all of their eggs into the cloud basket and, whilst this isn't necessarily a bad thing, the byproduct is what the MVP sees: Invitations to things like roadmaps for COSMOS DB, which is almost purely an Azure service and has nothing to do with the scope of the MVP's expertise. Others have suggested that SO and the OSS community, in general, are much wider audiences for MSFT to receive feedback from and that's not, inherently, true. MSFT still avails of things like the BETA program[0], so they still (seemingly) recognise that they have a need for that feedback loop (for the most part). What seems to happen at Microsoft is constant culture shifts, based purely on who's making the most money at the time. In the previous years, it was Office that was the top dog, now it's Azure and, not surprisingly, things are changing in the company to push the biggest seller. The byproduct of that, of course, is that everything else gets thrown to the wayside by chasing these new endeavours (by constantly changing directions) and not having a plan to fluidly bring everything forward and inline. [0] - https://www.onmsft.com/news/join-microsofts-pre-release-beta-program-office-and-help-make-next-version-better https://www.onmsft.com/news/join-microsofts-pre-release-beta...
kgame 7y ago
I used to aspire to become MVP.

226 points by chemodax 7y ago

Writing low-level magic and solving gnarly bugs seems to be linked to making hardware in the first place. Microsoft MVP is still a very west-centric program. If I had to guess, I'd wager the rising stars of this world are in Asia where the new hardware is being made. Microsoft doesn't really reach out to them, and I guess the feeling of disinterest is mutual.

jesseryoung 7y ago

> Where I used to get weekly updates, and focused, useful, invitations to what are called “Product Group Interactions” — stuff about the new WDK or changes to OS features — I now get an endless stream of invitations to SQL and SharePoint events. If I had to wager why it seems like the MVP program dieing (I have no clue if it is, this is the first post I've ever read about the MVP meta) it has to do with this point the author called out. I suspect that, at least in its early days, the MVP program help guide product development teams. In return for helping guide development, these MVP's were given preferential treatment over other customers and access to insider information. Now that Microsoft is (at least appearing) more open, they can get their feedback from their open source communities.

WorldMaker 7y ago
Not just open source communities, given that Microsoft spun out a lot of the "early interaction/feedback" stuff into the broader, easier to opt-in/opt-out Insider programs.
wvenable 7y ago
Even Stackoverflow kills the need for MS MVPs. In the dinosaur days before SO, you'd have MVPs answering questions around the Internet or within their particular community.
- quickthrower2 7y ago
  Before SO you had to scroll down on ExpertSexChange
logronoide 7y ago
MVP is an anachronism. A legacy of the old Microsoft, when a monopoly had to build the entire community around his brand. Nowadays open communities cannot be driven, Microsoft knows this and I think the MVP program does not fit in this new Microsoft focused on services as it is.

mrmondo 7y ago

I've seen this first hand at several conferences where Microsoft "MVP"s come on to the stage and try to make Microsoft seem all "hip" and "rad" rather than talking about real engineering and technical improvements, it was not only nauseating - so many people could clearly see right through it.

ta45345346 7y ago
Lets also not forgot the decade and more that Gates, through sheer greed, set the IT industry back. I hope Microsoft withers and dies, and anyone employed by them, for their actions.
- glitchc 7y ago
  Went a little off the deep end there, didn’t we?
- cstrat 7y ago
  wow, that's extreme. I'm sure people working for msft back in the day had no idea what the bigger picture was. It's easy to say this stuff now (about msft setting the industry back etc) but when you're in amongst it you're just a cog in the machine. I'm sure most people working there just wanted to get paid and felt they were contributing to the biggest tech company in the world.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- unreal37 7y ago
  You created a throwaway for this?

asp_net 7y ago

I have been a Microsoft MVP from 2006-2018. While I was proud to be part of a group of so many smart people at the beginning, my professional and personal life changed over the years and I stopped blogging regularly, never engaged in their new web forums (which replaced the newsgroups – anyone remembers them? ;)) and finally filtered out all of the many emails and newsletters coming to my inbox. So I would say for 10 out of 12 years I have been a ghost. A ghost that has been "re-awarded" every year – for whatever reason. I think that alone tells you something about the value of that "title".

ecmascript 7y ago
Username checks out!

mythz 7y ago

The MVP program has become a marketing program to encourage becoming unpaid shills of Microsoft and MS products, where the best way in is to evangelize and write articles and tweets promoting Azure. Your social media presence is more of a factor for determining membership than any technical prowess. They've even used it to encourage members (behind closed doors) to shill Microsoft links [1]. [1] https://twitter.com/rickasaurus/status/636269822595235840 https://twitter.com/rickasaurus/status/636269822595235840

anbop 7y ago
Well the program was always for helping the broader community, whether by writing tools, or participating in StackOverflow, or whatever... it was never a “Hall of Fame” for the best Windows programmers.
- mythz 7y ago
  It's about helping MS market their products by encouraging devs to pimp their tools/products under the guise of "technical excellence" that everyone used to look up to. An award for being one of MS's best pimpers just doesn't hold the same level of street cred. Now whenever I see someone wearing an MVP badge in their twitter bio I immediately discredit their pro-MS "advice" as an MVP shill wanting to score points towards their next renewal.
  - pknopf 7y ago
    Have you ever applied? But really, if the MVP program was what it is said to be, people like you'd be in it. ServiceStack has been a valuable contribution to the .NET community, and your continued development/support of it should defacto make you an MVP.
    - mythz 7y ago
      No, I wouldn't lend credence to a program that serves as an echo chamber to further insulate .NET's bubble. It's one of the marketing tools used to self-reinforce .NET's mono culture - which I view as the worst thing about .NET. It stopped being anything remotely to do with technical merit or being an "MVP" years ago. I'd prefer to see the program abolished, then maybe we'll start seeing more tech diversity in .NET.

smith-kyle 7y ago

A few years ago I told my friend "If I ever add 'Microsoft MVP' to my Twitter bio shoot me" I don't know why seeing this made me cringe so much. Probably because it was so transparently a ploy from Microsoft to make their most loyal devs feel special in hopes that they'd promote Microsoft tools more.

TomMarius 7y ago
Hmm, but you can't say that many people hadn't had great experiences with it.

c0achmcguirk 7y ago

I remember the battle between Jamie Cansdale and Microsoft regarding Jamie's MVP status [1]. The TL;DR was that Jamie developed TestDriven.NET as an add-on to Visual Studio. He released it for the pay versions and the free version: Visual Studio Express. Microsoft wanted him to make it unavailable for Express and decided to kick him out of the MVP program because they didn't want nice features in the free version of Visual Studio. ;) [1] https://www.infoq.com/news/2007/06/TestDriven-Express-Emails https://www.infoq.com/news/2007/06/TestDriven-Express-Emails

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
otis_inf 7y ago
They also kicked out Karl Peterson, who designed the first MVP logo (the diamond with the large MVP inside it) and wrote about 3000+ reply posts a year in various visual basic groups. The reason? He was a VB6 MVP and very vocal against VB.NET. Yes, you can't have the spear head of a community you just kicked in the nuts with a 'VB.NET' in the program that is designed to promote that successor tech, now can we...

cryptokernel 7y ago

Congratulations! Earn crypto here: https://coincircle.com/l/50VVxbObg3 https://coincircle.com/l/50VVxbObg3

Insanity 7y ago

Sounds like it is similar to the MSP program now then.

miaklesp 7y ago

What's the practical function of MVP in the era of GitHub and open source where everyone can join discussion with devs and PMs without a need to be part of any elitist group? Just to keep a handful of folks still proud of their MVP badges they earned in 2001?

pknopf 7y ago
People like to add it to their Twitter bios and be a part of an echo chamber.
munchbunny 7y ago
Are you asking why social validation is a useful tool for getting people to be helpful with thorny or esoteric technical questions? Regardless of whether I think the MVP program was good, your question answers itself.
unreal37 7y ago
There are thousands of people still proud of their MVP badges. You vastly underestimate their worth. It's like being given a blue checkmark from Twitter or Instagram. People want it.

lennpryor 7y ago

Hi, I’m Lenn from Microsoft, and I have responsibility for the MVP program. I appreciate the feedback, and apologize that we didn’t respond to your earlier emails. We will get back to you directly to address your questions and concerns. The MVP program does evolve over time and our goal is to ensure that it stays relevant and meaningful for participants. On behalf of Microsoft, we really appreciate your support of the program and community.

Nextgrid 7y ago
What a BS response. Now I don’t mean this personally (I’m sure you just wish the best to all of us just like most people here) but it doesn’t take anything away from the main point which is that the company can’t even be bothered to respond officially and the best this “MVP” can hope for is an unofficial acknowledgement from an employee outside of work time.
- lennpryor 7y ago
  My team did indeed miss the email from Pete unfortunately, I am not afraid to admit it. We feel bad about it and have sent him a personal apology that he didn't get a reply after 15 years. We are heads down reviewing 3,300 MVP renewal applications until the end of May and his CPM missed it in the flood of emails that comes her way this time of year. Our bad, and we own it and are sorry we made him feel disrespected for his 15 years of contributions to the community and Microsoft.
  - hizanberg 7y ago
    s/email/emails
    - RyJones 7y ago
      Lenn Pryor did say emails in the parent reply. "Email" is used both as a singular and plural, so I don't think his later reply is wrong, either.

ww520 7y ago

The Windows kernel driver development was one of the most hardcore programming in software development, requiring in depth knowledge of the kernel and a very different mindset. Have to be very defensive and thorough, or things would go badly.

j16sdiz 7y ago

Ten years ago, when I see a MVP give technical advice (they seldom do), they are very helpful. Now when I see technical advice from mvp, I wonder if they had ever read the manual...

peteforde 7y ago

Before ASP came out, I wrote a DLL to connect IIS to VB5/6 applications. I was also the VB guide on The Mining Company (which became about.com around 1997). This was enough of a resume that I was awarded the title MVP for IIS/ASP. I got a watch, notepad and pen. Seemed pretty cool for an 18 year old in smalltown Ontario. Eventually, they announced that VB6 was the end of the line for COM and VB.net was VB in name alone. I was one of about 100 MVPs that signed a petition encouraging MSFT to keep VB moving forward as a parallel product. "No, and stop asking" was the reply. Fast forward a few years, and I saw the original DHH "Build a blog in 15 minutes with Ruby on Rails" video. What I saw didn't even seem possible. I knew that it was going to be a big deal, and the next day my friends and I cofounded the first Rails consultancy in the world circa Fall 2004. This led to my first Mac Mini, and deploying to Linux. Today I only boot into Windows to do VR and hologram stuff. I haven't thought about my MVP certificate in over a decade, but I'm confident that it exists in a box. I'm honestly a little shocked to know that it's been going all this time.

hateful 7y ago

This is completely understandable. I've submitted for MVP for a product (not Microsoft, but built on Microsoft technologies) and I never get it due to the fact that I don't re-tweet all day and focus on development.

sk5t 7y ago
Ditto. I was twice nominated a while back, by existing MVPs, didn't get it, and had the distinct sense it was because I didn't tweet or run webinars or whatever to the glory of MSFT. What I did do was write and release some pretty decent free tools with .NET, and participated extensively on anything to do with Active Directory or ADFS. It was rather demoralizing.

werber 7y ago

I wasn't aware of the program till recently and just thought it was a marketing gimmick for vaguely technical people who can throw a little open source varnish on the company.

hudo 7y ago

no response from PM, amazing! I've been MVP for (just) 6y, 2012-2016, and probably replaced that many community PMs, and few categories also, that I didn't know where I belong any more. And last year, when I thought I did my biggest contribution by organizing workshops and meetup talks, writing OSS, and finally got great feedback from real people, not just page views of blog or twitter reach, they called me and said its not enough. And that I can apply next year when I do more of the things they measure, whatever that is this year! I just don't care any more.

maxheadroom 7y ago

Let's face it, MSFT is dropping all of their eggs into the cloud basket and, whilst this isn't necessarily a bad thing, the byproduct is what the MVP sees: Invitations to things like roadmaps for COSMOS DB, which is almost purely an Azure service and has nothing to do with the scope of the MVP's expertise. Others have suggested that SO and the OSS community, in general, are much wider audiences for MSFT to receive feedback from and that's not, inherently, true. MSFT still avails of things like the BETA program[0], so they still (seemingly) recognise that they have a need for that feedback loop (for the most part). What seems to happen at Microsoft is constant culture shifts, based purely on who's making the most money at the time. In the previous years, it was Office that was the top dog, now it's Azure and, not surprisingly, things are changing in the company to push the biggest seller. The byproduct of that, of course, is that everything else gets thrown to the wayside by chasing these new endeavours (by constantly changing directions) and not having a plan to fluidly bring everything forward and inline. [0] - https://www.onmsft.com/news/join-microsofts-pre-release-beta-program-office-and-help-make-next-version-better https://www.onmsft.com/news/join-microsofts-pre-release-beta...

kgame 7y ago

I used to aspire to become MVP.