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So uh...I don't know how to put this in a way that might not come off as hurtful, but I'm gonna try. Do you somehow not look at this sort of massive data minin

So uh...I don't know how to put this in a way that might not come off as hurtful, but I'm gonna try. Do you somehow not look at this sort of massive data mining, this sort of optimization for psychological assault upon people ill-equipped to defend themselves--and this is effectively a given, because the systems you are building are designed to exploit their brains and will by design optimize for maximal exploitation 'cause that's what makes your KPIs bigger--and ask whether this is a good idea? Do you want to be downstream of this psychological onslaught? Doesn't this horrify you? Isn't there something better--for yourself, and for the world at large--that you could be doing with such obvious talent?

whatshisface 8y ago
They don't have to be optimizing for Facebook addiction. They could instead be optimizing the safety of chemical plant control panels. Just because SV is almost wholly devoted to ads doesn't mean all software is.
- eropple 8y ago
  Sure. But did you look at the website he linked? When your ad copy focuses on "maximizing user engagement", I know you're not on the side of the angels.
RodgerTheGreat 8y ago
I try to abide by a simple principle: Manipulate computers, don't manipulate people. To a programmer, a computer is a dutiful servant and nothing more. As much as programming colors my thoughts and provides intellectual delight, it would be troubling to find myself treating other people the way I regularly treat computers. Tools work on the behalf of users. If you write software that uses people, it has ceased to be a tool. You've written a trap.
GuiA 8y ago
The problems you outline do not need AI to exist; see Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, etc for those phenomenons at play in the wild. And so the answer to your questions are clear: there are people who, for a paycheck big enough, a title fancy enough, are willing to completely ignore the harmful effects that their vision and execution imposes on communities, individuals, democracies. The interesting problems in tech now include how to build tools and systems to make people aware of how they are being messed with, and fight back.
- eropple 8y ago
  Of course--but those companies use AI specifically to, at scales previously impossible, directly personalize (and, frankly, entrap) people by exploiting bugs in the human firmware. To borrow a quote from a friend, "every time a social network abandons the chronological timeline, that's the moment they added AI." And I would like his justification for making the world a worse place.
  - tilmonedwards 8y ago
    Said friend checking in here. Spend some time watching "how to be a youtuber" youtube and it'll make the role of AI and ML much more obvious in the content you consume. Content creators have to appeal to an algorithmic curator in order to be placed in front of an audience. And that algorithm is constantly trying out new genres and creators on its audience. This technology is VERY good at showing you the things you want to see. [1] "Like and subscribe" isn't a meme, they're positive signals to an AI curator. Boundless isn't developing new technology, it's applying this same attention harvesting technology outside the content industry. I have no doubt that Boundless will have great success, because the demand side of the attention market is very strong. [1] This is how I ended up in "how to be a youtuber" youtube in the first place, for the record.
    - tdaltonc 8y ago
      > I have no doubt that Boundless will have great success, because the demand side of the attention market is very strong. Can I quote you in our investor pitch deck?
      - eropple 8y ago
        Holy shit, dude. This is shameful.
      - tilmonedwards 8y ago
        No
    - 8y ago
eropple 8y ago
So now I'm a little mad because this shit sundae gets worse. http://youjustneedspace.com http://youjustneedspace.com - thus is you, too. How much data is going out of that app to better refine and target your "engagement" shit?
- eropple 8y ago
  (Answer: enough. 'tilmonedwards did some digging. I look forward to his blog post about these cretins.)
- tdaltonc 8y ago
  All of it. We have a common data model for both are habit-building and habit-breaking products. They learn from each other. Sometimes you want to invite a new behavior in to your life, sometimes you want to ask one to leave. We want to enable both of those behavior change goals.
tdaltonc 8y ago
I want to address your specific concerns, but first a general note: I think that what your conscience recoils from is not the data mining or the ability to change people. In the abstract, those are tremendous sources of human value. I think that the real problem here is not the power, but the power dynamics. That the people designing behavior have no contact with the people being designed. That -- as you said -- people are ill equipped. That is the fundamental structural violence that Boundless is trying to rectify by arming the good guys with better tools than the bad guys. As you point out below, we even make tools to help equip end users. > ask whether this is a good idea? All of our sales leads get scored for publisher/user alignment and we take that scoring very seriously. If you have time to check out our case studies[2], I'd love to know which ones you think the world was better off without. I'm proud to have worked on all of them. > Do you want to be downstream of this psychological onslaught? I use our customers' apps as well as the ones we build in house on a daily bases. > Doesn't this horrify you? Isn't there something better--for yourself, and for the world at large--that you could be doing with such obvious talent? This is absolutely the most important thing I can be doing with my time. The loins share of human suffering in the developed world stems from people in ability to be the person they aspire to be. 100's of MM of people dream daily about changing their addictions, physical fitness, or educational attainment and we're working on making all of those behavior change goals more attainable. [1] https://www.boundless.ai/blog/how-to-score-leads-for-values-alignment/ https://www.boundless.ai/blog/how-to-score-leads-for-values-... [2] https://files.boundless.ai/case-studies/boundless-mind-case-studies.pdf https://files.boundless.ai/case-studies/boundless-mind-case-...
- eropple 8y ago
  "We sell guns to both sides and that makes us blameless. Even when one side are billionaires and the other are paupers." I can't conceive of a universe where I could look myself in the mirror if I did what you choose to do.

whatshisface 8y ago

They don't have to be optimizing for Facebook addiction. They could instead be optimizing the safety of chemical plant control panels. Just because SV is almost wholly devoted to ads doesn't mean all software is.

eropple 8y ago
Sure. But did you look at the website he linked? When your ad copy focuses on "maximizing user engagement", I know you're not on the side of the angels.

RodgerTheGreat 8y ago

I try to abide by a simple principle: Manipulate computers, don't manipulate people. To a programmer, a computer is a dutiful servant and nothing more. As much as programming colors my thoughts and provides intellectual delight, it would be troubling to find myself treating other people the way I regularly treat computers. Tools work on the behalf of users. If you write software that uses people, it has ceased to be a tool. You've written a trap.

GuiA 8y ago

The problems you outline do not need AI to exist; see Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, etc for those phenomenons at play in the wild. And so the answer to your questions are clear: there are people who, for a paycheck big enough, a title fancy enough, are willing to completely ignore the harmful effects that their vision and execution imposes on communities, individuals, democracies. The interesting problems in tech now include how to build tools and systems to make people aware of how they are being messed with, and fight back.

eropple 8y ago
Of course--but those companies use AI specifically to, at scales previously impossible, directly personalize (and, frankly, entrap) people by exploiting bugs in the human firmware. To borrow a quote from a friend, "every time a social network abandons the chronological timeline, that's the moment they added AI." And I would like his justification for making the world a worse place.
- tilmonedwards 8y ago
  Said friend checking in here. Spend some time watching "how to be a youtuber" youtube and it'll make the role of AI and ML much more obvious in the content you consume. Content creators have to appeal to an algorithmic curator in order to be placed in front of an audience. And that algorithm is constantly trying out new genres and creators on its audience. This technology is VERY good at showing you the things you want to see. [1] "Like and subscribe" isn't a meme, they're positive signals to an AI curator. Boundless isn't developing new technology, it's applying this same attention harvesting technology outside the content industry. I have no doubt that Boundless will have great success, because the demand side of the attention market is very strong. [1] This is how I ended up in "how to be a youtuber" youtube in the first place, for the record.
  - tdaltonc 8y ago
    > I have no doubt that Boundless will have great success, because the demand side of the attention market is very strong. Can I quote you in our investor pitch deck?
    - eropple 8y ago
      Holy shit, dude. This is shameful.
    - tilmonedwards 8y ago
      No
  - 8y ago

eropple 8y ago

So now I'm a little mad because this shit sundae gets worse. http://youjustneedspace.com http://youjustneedspace.com - thus is you, too. How much data is going out of that app to better refine and target your "engagement" shit?

eropple 8y ago
(Answer: enough. 'tilmonedwards did some digging. I look forward to his blog post about these cretins.)
tdaltonc 8y ago
All of it. We have a common data model for both are habit-building and habit-breaking products. They learn from each other. Sometimes you want to invite a new behavior in to your life, sometimes you want to ask one to leave. We want to enable both of those behavior change goals.

tdaltonc 8y ago

I want to address your specific concerns, but first a general note: I think that what your conscience recoils from is not the data mining or the ability to change people. In the abstract, those are tremendous sources of human value. I think that the real problem here is not the power, but the power dynamics. That the people designing behavior have no contact with the people being designed. That -- as you said -- people are ill equipped. That is the fundamental structural violence that Boundless is trying to rectify by arming the good guys with better tools than the bad guys. As you point out below, we even make tools to help equip end users. > ask whether this is a good idea? All of our sales leads get scored for publisher/user alignment and we take that scoring very seriously. If you have time to check out our case studies[2], I'd love to know which ones you think the world was better off without. I'm proud to have worked on all of them. > Do you want to be downstream of this psychological onslaught? I use our customers' apps as well as the ones we build in house on a daily bases. > Doesn't this horrify you? Isn't there something better--for yourself, and for the world at large--that you could be doing with such obvious talent? This is absolutely the most important thing I can be doing with my time. The loins share of human suffering in the developed world stems from people in ability to be the person they aspire to be. 100's of MM of people dream daily about changing their addictions, physical fitness, or educational attainment and we're working on making all of those behavior change goals more attainable. [1] https://www.boundless.ai/blog/how-to-score-leads-for-values-alignment/ https://www.boundless.ai/blog/how-to-score-leads-for-values-... [2] https://files.boundless.ai/case-studies/boundless-mind-case-studies.pdf https://files.boundless.ai/case-studies/boundless-mind-case-...

eropple 8y ago
"We sell guns to both sides and that makes us blameless. Even when one side are billionaires and the other are paupers." I can't conceive of a universe where I could look myself in the mirror if I did what you choose to do.