7 ms·

I had no idea code bodies have been doing this... incredible. Requiring private individuals to pay a private entity for access to the law under which they are b

I had no idea code bodies have been doing this... incredible. Requiring private individuals to pay a private entity for access to the law under which they are bound is unconscionable, to say the least. The ICC v. UpCodes lawsuit is clearly one important front in this battle. Another potential route to ending this would be for a licensed contractor to sue the government for failing to make freely available the building codes under which he/she is legally bound. The legal argument (and thus the government's legal duty) would be crystal clear in a case like that, especially because both civil and criminal law requires such adherence.

wolfgke 8y ago
> I had no idea code bodies have been doing this... incredible. Requiring private individuals to pay a private entity for access to the law under which they are bound is unconscionable, to say the least. In particular for people who are able to understand German, I recommend reading "Franz Kafka - Vor dem Gesetz" (Türhüterparabel - gatekeeper parable): > https://gutenberg.spiegel.de/buch/erzahlungen-i-9763/16 https://gutenberg.spiegel.de/buch/erzahlungen-i-9763/16 English translation: > http://www.kafka-online.info/before-the-law.html http://www.kafka-online.info/before-the-law.html Here a narrated version (German): > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77JLmS6diaE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77JLmS6diaE This parable is also part of the novel fragment "Der Proceß" (The Trial) by Franz Kafka - a novel that I can also highly recommend: > https://gutenberg.spiegel.de/buch/der-prozess-9771/1 https://gutenberg.spiegel.de/buch/der-prozess-9771/1 English translation: > http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/7849 http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/7849
iratewizard 8y ago
So my wife works for general code which was acquired by ICC and she gave me her inside scoop on this. It's a tough gray zone because of how ICC's business model is structured. They are not government funded and to write the codes take a lot of people a lot of man hours. Unlike general code, they write code for the entire state and offset cost to the people who access it professionally. On the ICC v. UpCodes battle, UpCodes just ripped the content from ICC and used it to create their own app. The ethical gray zone I see is this: if ICC can't fund the process of writing the codes, how will they get written? Can a for-profit company like UpCodes be trusted to take up the reigns on that if ICC can no longer justify creating the codes?
- wefarrell 8y ago
  If ICC generates less revenue, they won’t be able to fund as many new building codes. Wouldn’t that result in a less fractured and more simplified code system? Wouldn’t that be a good thing?
  - iratewizard 8y ago
    I don't agree with that. The way I see it, looser codes could very well start making the US look like China with man-eating escalators and frequent structural failures.
    - mortenjorck 8y ago
      How many different versions of escalator safety codes does the world need? Even for something like pile foundations that may have some geological variance by region, aren't there certain heuristics that should always be followed, with appropriate site surveying and structural analysis?
      - Old_Thrashbarg 8y ago
        Exactly, and does each state and county really need its own of each code or have to add its own amendments? There are some particular scenarios though where they do: NYC has an extra code related to flooding, California has an earthquake code. Still you'd think a couple states or even a couple countries could all use the same earthquake code.
        metaphor 8y ago
        > There are some particular scenarios... Building considerations are waaaaaay more involved and complicated than you can even begin to imagine.
        Old_Thrashbarg 8y ago
        Well, a lot of the inter-state differences, I've never understood. For example, Massachusetts changed the stair riser height from 7-3/4" to 8-1/4" (https://up.codes/viewer/massachusetts/irc-2015/chapter/3/building-planning#R311.7.5.1 https://up.codes/viewer/massachusetts/irc-2015/chapter/3/bui...). Why do 49 states (I think) have one height and MA has a different one? Not saying all the differences don't make sense just a fair amount of them. I'm also not an industry professional (despite staring at these codes all day, I'm usually not actually reading them), so honestly asking here.
cmroanirgo 8y ago
It works pretty much this way in my country too. 'Standards Australia' is a body who charges for PDFs of various codes (including those which are thinly layered services over ISO standards)[0]. Local and state governments refer to those AS 'standards' for compliance. Yes, it's a self referential ponzi scheme forcing citizens to pay to be adherent to laws. It should be free. INAL however, I think the main loophole that allows it to exist is that since it's a private company (albeit labelled as a non-profit) it has 'copyright' on its publications, which is like the 'mechanical copyright' that the music /video industry has on CDs add DVDs, which is independent to the 'artistic copyright'. Many of our 'governing bodies' operate that this way: there's the law as written, and then there's the implementation of said law (tax office, Medicare, workers compensation, etc) in which, over time, become the arbitrator of the law -- which is a very different thing. [0] https://www.standards.org.au/search-for-a-standard https://www.standards.org.au/search-for-a-standard
- hug 8y ago
  One of the most interesting things about the AS system, to my mind, comes from a case where a motorcyclist was fined for attaching a helmet cam -- AS1698 does not permit modification of helmets. (Whether or not attaching something via a sticker is modifying the helmet is still up for grabs.) Regardless, he fought his case up to the county court and won, based on the argument that it was not sensible to expect the public to adhere to an AS that was not publicly available. https://www.mauriceblackburn.com.au/about/media-centre/media-statements/2016/maurice-blackburn-wins-helmet-camera-appeal-in-county-court/ https://www.mauriceblackburn.com.au/about/media-centre/media...
  - hermitdev 8y ago
    > Thus from the four preceding articles [of Question 90], the definition of law may be gathered; and it is nothing else than an ordinance of reason for the common good, made by him who has care of the community, and promulgated. - St Thomas Aquinas [1] The key word I want to bring attention from that quote is promulgated, or made known. If law can be copyrighted by a private entity, by definition it cannot be universally promulgated and should not be considered a valid law. Otherwise, we will end up with private, unknown, laws that will be pulled out of nowhere when convenient. The text of law must be universally accessible to all (at least within a jurisdiction) or the law should be deemed invalid. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treatise_on_Law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treatise_on_Law
rdlecler1 8y ago
I’d be ashamed if this was how I made my paycheck.

wolfgke 8y ago

> I had no idea code bodies have been doing this... incredible. Requiring private individuals to pay a private entity for access to the law under which they are bound is unconscionable, to say the least. In particular for people who are able to understand German, I recommend reading "Franz Kafka - Vor dem Gesetz" (Türhüterparabel - gatekeeper parable): > https://gutenberg.spiegel.de/buch/erzahlungen-i-9763/16 https://gutenberg.spiegel.de/buch/erzahlungen-i-9763/16 English translation: > http://www.kafka-online.info/before-the-law.html http://www.kafka-online.info/before-the-law.html Here a narrated version (German): > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77JLmS6diaE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77JLmS6diaE This parable is also part of the novel fragment "Der Proceß" (The Trial) by Franz Kafka - a novel that I can also highly recommend: > https://gutenberg.spiegel.de/buch/der-prozess-9771/1 https://gutenberg.spiegel.de/buch/der-prozess-9771/1 English translation: > http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/7849 http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/7849

iratewizard 8y ago

So my wife works for general code which was acquired by ICC and she gave me her inside scoop on this. It's a tough gray zone because of how ICC's business model is structured. They are not government funded and to write the codes take a lot of people a lot of man hours. Unlike general code, they write code for the entire state and offset cost to the people who access it professionally. On the ICC v. UpCodes battle, UpCodes just ripped the content from ICC and used it to create their own app. The ethical gray zone I see is this: if ICC can't fund the process of writing the codes, how will they get written? Can a for-profit company like UpCodes be trusted to take up the reigns on that if ICC can no longer justify creating the codes?

wefarrell 8y ago
If ICC generates less revenue, they won’t be able to fund as many new building codes. Wouldn’t that result in a less fractured and more simplified code system? Wouldn’t that be a good thing?
- iratewizard 8y ago
  I don't agree with that. The way I see it, looser codes could very well start making the US look like China with man-eating escalators and frequent structural failures.
  - mortenjorck 8y ago
    How many different versions of escalator safety codes does the world need? Even for something like pile foundations that may have some geological variance by region, aren't there certain heuristics that should always be followed, with appropriate site surveying and structural analysis?
    - Old_Thrashbarg 8y ago
      Exactly, and does each state and county really need its own of each code or have to add its own amendments? There are some particular scenarios though where they do: NYC has an extra code related to flooding, California has an earthquake code. Still you'd think a couple states or even a couple countries could all use the same earthquake code.
      - metaphor 8y ago
        > There are some particular scenarios... Building considerations are waaaaaay more involved and complicated than you can even begin to imagine.
        Old_Thrashbarg 8y ago
        Well, a lot of the inter-state differences, I've never understood. For example, Massachusetts changed the stair riser height from 7-3/4" to 8-1/4" (https://up.codes/viewer/massachusetts/irc-2015/chapter/3/building-planning#R311.7.5.1 https://up.codes/viewer/massachusetts/irc-2015/chapter/3/bui...). Why do 49 states (I think) have one height and MA has a different one? Not saying all the differences don't make sense just a fair amount of them. I'm also not an industry professional (despite staring at these codes all day, I'm usually not actually reading them), so honestly asking here.

cmroanirgo 8y ago

It works pretty much this way in my country too. 'Standards Australia' is a body who charges for PDFs of various codes (including those which are thinly layered services over ISO standards)[0]. Local and state governments refer to those AS 'standards' for compliance. Yes, it's a self referential ponzi scheme forcing citizens to pay to be adherent to laws. It should be free. INAL however, I think the main loophole that allows it to exist is that since it's a private company (albeit labelled as a non-profit) it has 'copyright' on its publications, which is like the 'mechanical copyright' that the music /video industry has on CDs add DVDs, which is independent to the 'artistic copyright'. Many of our 'governing bodies' operate that this way: there's the law as written, and then there's the implementation of said law (tax office, Medicare, workers compensation, etc) in which, over time, become the arbitrator of the law -- which is a very different thing. [0] https://www.standards.org.au/search-for-a-standard https://www.standards.org.au/search-for-a-standard

hug 8y ago
One of the most interesting things about the AS system, to my mind, comes from a case where a motorcyclist was fined for attaching a helmet cam -- AS1698 does not permit modification of helmets. (Whether or not attaching something via a sticker is modifying the helmet is still up for grabs.) Regardless, he fought his case up to the county court and won, based on the argument that it was not sensible to expect the public to adhere to an AS that was not publicly available. https://www.mauriceblackburn.com.au/about/media-centre/media-statements/2016/maurice-blackburn-wins-helmet-camera-appeal-in-county-court/ https://www.mauriceblackburn.com.au/about/media-centre/media...
- hermitdev 8y ago
  > Thus from the four preceding articles [of Question 90], the definition of law may be gathered; and it is nothing else than an ordinance of reason for the common good, made by him who has care of the community, and promulgated. - St Thomas Aquinas [1] The key word I want to bring attention from that quote is promulgated, or made known. If law can be copyrighted by a private entity, by definition it cannot be universally promulgated and should not be considered a valid law. Otherwise, we will end up with private, unknown, laws that will be pulled out of nowhere when convenient. The text of law must be universally accessible to all (at least within a jurisdiction) or the law should be deemed invalid. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treatise_on_Law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treatise_on_Law

rdlecler1 8y ago

I’d be ashamed if this was how I made my paycheck.