5 ms·

Slight difference in that the Chinese government routinely disappears political dissidents while in the U.S. we give them talk shows.

ska 8y ago
It isn't an either or question though. Chinese govt behavior being worse doesn't mean US govt behavior isn't bad, and shouldn't be called out. The current rash of scripted pearl clutching about Huawei etc. is nothing if not disingenuous... so it's fair to call that out too. [edit] to clarify about the "disengenous" part. It's not about saying "This is bad", it's about saying "This is bad, we would never do anything like that, can you believe it, what evil people" when in fact it is something you do, or have done, and given the chance will probably do again. This obviously doesn't cover all of the bad behavior of Chinese govt, but it certainly does some. Saying "we caught out country X doing something we don't like but also do to them" maybe doesn't have the same ring to it, but has the advantage of being honest.
- saas_sam 8y ago
  I don't understand. You either think it's legitimate to call out bad behavior (US or Chinese) or you think doing so is disingenuous pearl-clutching. Is it only pearl-clutching when it's about the far worse behavior of the Chinese gov't? Or are you advocating for a constant apologizing for US misdeeds any time another countries' misdeeds are raised, even if that other countries' are far worse...?
  - ska 8y ago
    Or are you advocating for a constant apologizing for US misdeeds any time another countries' misdeeds are raised, even if that other countries' are far worse...? Actually I'd rather we avoid the whole pointless whataboutism exercise if we can. Again, it's not either or. The originating comment was claiming that some of the news about Huawei is being driven by very different motivations (I think it was trade war fallout), and being stated in disingenuous ways. And yes, there seems a lot of pearl clutching going on right now about vaguely defined Chinese technology threats. As well as some very real concerns about Nation-state actors in this space, China in particular. That seems worth at least questioning. What I am saying is that it is perfectly consistent to hold the mixture of views that the Chinese government is doing some really bad things with privacy and personal data, that the US government also does some really bad things with privacy and personal data (though not nearly as many as Chinese govt) and that some of what is being propagated in the media currently against companies like Huawei has very little to do with these things but rather is based more on domestic economic interests. I think it's fair to call that last part out, without it devolving into a bunch of whataboutism on the former. Agree that particular poster could have worded things better, but they had a (valid, I think) point.
ASalazarMX 8y ago
Guantanamo and the whole "enemy combatants don't have human rights", "waterboarding is not torture", etc. legal gymnastics don't inspire a lot of trust either.
- saas_sam 8y ago
  Personally I don't trust anyone who wants to campaign for the rights of _enemy combatants_ but, again, I will admit that's a personal preference.
  - ASalazarMX 8y ago
    I was just pointing out that USA is capable of acting like an authoritarian regime if needed. Of course it can't be compared to China's, not by far, but it knows the road.
wallace_f 8y ago
Ok granted China is light years behind the US, but we also have some crazy stories. A Dakota Pipeline Protests journalist was stopped at the US border, "raising press freedom alarms."(1) Laura Poitras, Greenwald, Ladar Levison have been obviously victims of ill will from US authorities. Of course, don't forget the "get Gary Webb team" of industry experts the CIA watched over, which set out to "we're going to take away his Pulitzer."(2) Non-radical political parties are swat raided, intimidated, and silenced by secret courts in the US(3). Of course this is just the start to a very long list. But comments which suggest everything is fine in this regard really worry me, as someone who loves America and its values. 1-https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/02/business/media/canadian-journalists-detention-at-us-border-raises-press-freedom-alarms.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/02/business/media/canadian-j... 2-https://theintercept.com/2014/09/25/managing-nightmare-cia-media-destruction-gary-webb/ https://theintercept.com/2014/09/25/managing-nightmare-cia-m... 3-https://youtu.be/M31ZCh1VeX8 https://youtu.be/M31ZCh1VeX8
- saas_sam 8y ago
  Yes and I am glad to live in a country that publishes about such infractions wherever they are found to occur.
  - wallace_f 8y ago
    Me too. Point is, if you look at those examples, that line is in danger.

ska 8y ago

It isn't an either or question though. Chinese govt behavior being worse doesn't mean US govt behavior isn't bad, and shouldn't be called out. The current rash of scripted pearl clutching about Huawei etc. is nothing if not disingenuous... so it's fair to call that out too. [edit] to clarify about the "disengenous" part. It's not about saying "This is bad", it's about saying "This is bad, we would never do anything like that, can you believe it, what evil people" when in fact it is something you do, or have done, and given the chance will probably do again. This obviously doesn't cover all of the bad behavior of Chinese govt, but it certainly does some. Saying "we caught out country X doing something we don't like but also do to them" maybe doesn't have the same ring to it, but has the advantage of being honest.

saas_sam 8y ago
I don't understand. You either think it's legitimate to call out bad behavior (US or Chinese) or you think doing so is disingenuous pearl-clutching. Is it only pearl-clutching when it's about the far worse behavior of the Chinese gov't? Or are you advocating for a constant apologizing for US misdeeds any time another countries' misdeeds are raised, even if that other countries' are far worse...?
- ska 8y ago
  Or are you advocating for a constant apologizing for US misdeeds any time another countries' misdeeds are raised, even if that other countries' are far worse...? Actually I'd rather we avoid the whole pointless whataboutism exercise if we can. Again, it's not either or. The originating comment was claiming that some of the news about Huawei is being driven by very different motivations (I think it was trade war fallout), and being stated in disingenuous ways. And yes, there seems a lot of pearl clutching going on right now about vaguely defined Chinese technology threats. As well as some very real concerns about Nation-state actors in this space, China in particular. That seems worth at least questioning. What I am saying is that it is perfectly consistent to hold the mixture of views that the Chinese government is doing some really bad things with privacy and personal data, that the US government also does some really bad things with privacy and personal data (though not nearly as many as Chinese govt) and that some of what is being propagated in the media currently against companies like Huawei has very little to do with these things but rather is based more on domestic economic interests. I think it's fair to call that last part out, without it devolving into a bunch of whataboutism on the former. Agree that particular poster could have worded things better, but they had a (valid, I think) point.

ASalazarMX 8y ago

Guantanamo and the whole "enemy combatants don't have human rights", "waterboarding is not torture", etc. legal gymnastics don't inspire a lot of trust either.

saas_sam 8y ago
Personally I don't trust anyone who wants to campaign for the rights of _enemy combatants_ but, again, I will admit that's a personal preference.
- ASalazarMX 8y ago
  I was just pointing out that USA is capable of acting like an authoritarian regime if needed. Of course it can't be compared to China's, not by far, but it knows the road.

wallace_f 8y ago

Ok granted China is light years behind the US, but we also have some crazy stories. A Dakota Pipeline Protests journalist was stopped at the US border, "raising press freedom alarms."(1) Laura Poitras, Greenwald, Ladar Levison have been obviously victims of ill will from US authorities. Of course, don't forget the "get Gary Webb team" of industry experts the CIA watched over, which set out to "we're going to take away his Pulitzer."(2) Non-radical political parties are swat raided, intimidated, and silenced by secret courts in the US(3). Of course this is just the start to a very long list. But comments which suggest everything is fine in this regard really worry me, as someone who loves America and its values. 1-https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/02/business/media/canadian-journalists-detention-at-us-border-raises-press-freedom-alarms.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/02/business/media/canadian-j... 2-https://theintercept.com/2014/09/25/managing-nightmare-cia-media-destruction-gary-webb/ https://theintercept.com/2014/09/25/managing-nightmare-cia-m... 3-https://youtu.be/M31ZCh1VeX8 https://youtu.be/M31ZCh1VeX8

saas_sam 8y ago
Yes and I am glad to live in a country that publishes about such infractions wherever they are found to occur.
- wallace_f 8y ago
  Me too. Point is, if you look at those examples, that line is in danger.