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Social issues definitely seem like part of it now, but Kotaku was disliked in hardcore communities well before Gamergate or any of that other nonsense. My recol

Social issues definitely seem like part of it now, but Kotaku was disliked in hardcore communities well before Gamergate or any of that other nonsense. My recollections of late-2000s Kotaku are similar to how I feel today about a lot of tech publications where personal expertise in their subject area makes it painfully obvious that they don't really know what they're talking about. When you spend hundreds to thousands of hours mastering a game and immersing yourself in the culture surrounding it, an article on "your" game, unless it's written by someone as keyed-in to the meta as you are, is likely to come off as a series of poorly informed hot takes. In other words, generalist journalists frequently have a hard time developing the level of experience in a particular area necessary to write about it in such a way that's not laughable to the "experts". This effect is particularly bad in video games, where the amount of rabbit holes you can pour yourself into is practically uncountable. Everyone's an expert on something, and it only takes one crappy article on your pet game to destroy your confidence in anything that outlet produces, even if you lack the experience to see the lie in each and every piece.

JohnBooty 8y ago
I'm torn here. On one hand, I understand what you're saying. For example, I'm a big fan of Evangelion, and there's a decent amount of meta context to be aware about when going into that series. On the other hand, I think we need fresh (and even naive) looks at these older works. Shenmue, Evangelion, etc -- they should be continually reevaluated and challenged. That's the difference between a living fandom and an echo chamber of folks smelling their own farts.
- livueta 8y ago
  Oh, sure, I didn't mean to critique this article in particular. I thought it was actually somewhat interesting and went off on some fun mental tangents around how the form of the creative medium can influence the message, the obvious example being the interplay of mechanical difficulty and narrative in Fromsoft games. Stuff like this definitely benefits from a fresh perspective. Nobody needs another self-referential addition to the homoerotic subtexts in Madoka fandom wiki page. Where I and others have had problems in the past tends to be around content that's less interpretive, like this, and more factual, like "a window into competitive play in ___ MMO", where, if you're a competitive player of ___ MMO, the gaps in understanding are on display front and center.
  - rainonmoon 8y ago
    Isn't the framing of that hypothetical piece as "a window into..." fairly heavily implying that it's not intended to be the entire picture?
thrownblown 8y ago
their media group was purchased in 2016 for $136 million and was sold recently for less than $50 million. in 2017 they generated $80 million in revenue at only a $20 million dollar loss. https://www.niemanlab.org/2019/04/gizmodo-media-group-is-sold-to-a-private-equity-firm-and-univision-is-out-of-the-english-language-website-business/ https://www.niemanlab.org/2019/04/gizmodo-media-group-is-sol...
smacktoward 8y ago
> When you spend hundreds to thousands of hours mastering a game and immersing yourself in the culture surrounding it, an article on "your" game, unless it's written by someone as keyed-in to the meta as you are, is likely to come off as a series of poorly informed hot takes. In other words, generalist journalists frequently have a hard time developing the level of experience in a particular area necessary to write about it in such a way that's not laughable to the "experts". An alternate way to say this is that these communities are incredibly insular, and the most active participants work hard to keep them that way by using their status in the group to set themselves up as gatekeepers, policing the bounds of acceptable opinion. Perspectives that differ from that of the in-group threaten their status, so they react against them violently in order to signal to the group that they're still in charge, nothing to see here, move along. These gatekeepers also often see their "elite" status in the group as a fundamental part of their self-worth, so they interpret challenges to their ideas as attacks on them personally, and respond in kind. And it doesn't help either that gaming communities tend to disproportionately attract teenagers and young adults, who are right at that moment in life when their passions tend to run hottest.
- s_m_t 8y ago
  Never really seen anything like this
tdb7893 8y ago
I mean I game a lot and overall their quality seems pretty average compared to other sites. Other sites have the same issues but don't get near the same amount of hate. I get thinking it's quality is middling but I've ran into a lot of opinions that go beyond that quite frequently.
scott_s 8y ago
I think the author of this piece clearly considers Shenmue one of "their" games. I don't think we're seeing the result of an outsider, but quite the opposite. Someone who has analyzed this game this deeply is clearly enmeshed in it. Rather, I think we're seeing two effects: 1. When someone loves a game, I think they have a tendency to over-estimate how disliked some of the more unusual aspects of it are. 2. When someone loves a game, and they point out that most people don't like some aspect of that game, other people who also love that game group themselves into "most people" and then disagree with the author. What I think is more important is that whether or not the forklifts were hated is not the point. The author's point is that the forklifts were an integral part of the narrative experience of the game, as they contrasted player experience with that of the main character. Focusing on a throw-away "so-and-so is hated" is silly.

JohnBooty 8y ago

I'm torn here. On one hand, I understand what you're saying. For example, I'm a big fan of Evangelion, and there's a decent amount of meta context to be aware about when going into that series. On the other hand, I think we need fresh (and even naive) looks at these older works. Shenmue, Evangelion, etc -- they should be continually reevaluated and challenged. That's the difference between a living fandom and an echo chamber of folks smelling their own farts.

livueta 8y ago
Oh, sure, I didn't mean to critique this article in particular. I thought it was actually somewhat interesting and went off on some fun mental tangents around how the form of the creative medium can influence the message, the obvious example being the interplay of mechanical difficulty and narrative in Fromsoft games. Stuff like this definitely benefits from a fresh perspective. Nobody needs another self-referential addition to the homoerotic subtexts in Madoka fandom wiki page. Where I and others have had problems in the past tends to be around content that's less interpretive, like this, and more factual, like "a window into competitive play in ___ MMO", where, if you're a competitive player of ___ MMO, the gaps in understanding are on display front and center.
- rainonmoon 8y ago
  Isn't the framing of that hypothetical piece as "a window into..." fairly heavily implying that it's not intended to be the entire picture?

thrownblown 8y ago

their media group was purchased in 2016 for $136 million and was sold recently for less than $50 million. in 2017 they generated $80 million in revenue at only a $20 million dollar loss. https://www.niemanlab.org/2019/04/gizmodo-media-group-is-sold-to-a-private-equity-firm-and-univision-is-out-of-the-english-language-website-business/ https://www.niemanlab.org/2019/04/gizmodo-media-group-is-sol...

smacktoward 8y ago

> When you spend hundreds to thousands of hours mastering a game and immersing yourself in the culture surrounding it, an article on "your" game, unless it's written by someone as keyed-in to the meta as you are, is likely to come off as a series of poorly informed hot takes. In other words, generalist journalists frequently have a hard time developing the level of experience in a particular area necessary to write about it in such a way that's not laughable to the "experts". An alternate way to say this is that these communities are incredibly insular, and the most active participants work hard to keep them that way by using their status in the group to set themselves up as gatekeepers, policing the bounds of acceptable opinion. Perspectives that differ from that of the in-group threaten their status, so they react against them violently in order to signal to the group that they're still in charge, nothing to see here, move along. These gatekeepers also often see their "elite" status in the group as a fundamental part of their self-worth, so they interpret challenges to their ideas as attacks on them personally, and respond in kind. And it doesn't help either that gaming communities tend to disproportionately attract teenagers and young adults, who are right at that moment in life when their passions tend to run hottest.

s_m_t 8y ago
Never really seen anything like this

tdb7893 8y ago

I mean I game a lot and overall their quality seems pretty average compared to other sites. Other sites have the same issues but don't get near the same amount of hate. I get thinking it's quality is middling but I've ran into a lot of opinions that go beyond that quite frequently.

scott_s 8y ago

I think the author of this piece clearly considers Shenmue one of "their" games. I don't think we're seeing the result of an outsider, but quite the opposite. Someone who has analyzed this game this deeply is clearly enmeshed in it. Rather, I think we're seeing two effects: 1. When someone loves a game, I think they have a tendency to over-estimate how disliked some of the more unusual aspects of it are. 2. When someone loves a game, and they point out that most people don't like some aspect of that game, other people who also love that game group themselves into "most people" and then disagree with the author. What I think is more important is that whether or not the forklifts were hated is not the point. The author's point is that the forklifts were an integral part of the narrative experience of the game, as they contrasted player experience with that of the main character. Focusing on a throw-away "so-and-so is hated" is silly.