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I think the changes are reasonable, but the lack of historic support and the timeline of the changes are not. Java is deeply engrained in much of enterprise so

I think the changes are reasonable, but the lack of historic support and the timeline of the changes are not. Java is deeply engrained in much of enterprise software, which is slow and difficult to change. The licensing change was not given with nearly enough heads up for companies to properly assess their options and migrate to OpenJDK if they choose. From a user perspective, where it’s known that switching JDKs and updating major versions is often not a straightforward task, it sure does seem like this was carefully planned to make it too difficult to move off the JDK that just got a lot more expensive to use. My company is dropping Oracle JDK entirely and moving to Open JDK, and over time transitioning off of java wherever possible directly due of this change. We are not a small company. It took several months just to figure out the scope of how widely the JDK was in use, we had to cut Oracle a hell of a cheque to avoid licensing issues, and we aren’t doing it again. We have a dedicated team assembled to move off of Oracle JDK now. The general consensus of the Java leaders in our company is that this is a last ditch effort money grab by Oracle to leech money from Java, which was feared from the day that Sun was acquired.

pron 8y ago
> The licensing change was not given with nearly enough heads up for companies to properly assess their options and migrate to OpenJDK if they choose. I don't know what enough would be. This has been discussed and explained for at least a year. > it sure does seem like this was carefully planned to make it too difficult to move off the JDK that just got a lot more expensive to use. What? The change was that as of JDK 11, Oracle JDK and OpenJDK are the same software[1]. The same software that used to contain both free and commercial features, and that had field of use restriction is now 100% free and 100% open. If this is making it harder, I don't know what making it easier would be. If free is more expensive, I don't know what less expensive is. > My company is dropping Oracle JDK entirely and moving to Open JDK, and over time transitioning off of java wherever possible directly due of this change. Good, because that's what Oracle has been asking you to do[2]. Oracle JDK is now the name given to the same software sold with a commercial support subscription. If you don't want to buy support, don't use the package that includes it. > The general consensus of the Java leaders in our company is that this is a last ditch effort money grab by Oracle to leech money from Java, which was feared from the day that Sun was acquired. I am a bit concerned that the Java leaders in your company think that a money grab is taking a commerical offering and making it free. Oracle has now made the JDK 100% open source and free for the first time ever. To fund its development, it is also selling support for those who want it. [1]: https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/oracle-jdk-releases-for-java-11-and-later https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/oracle-jdk-rele... [2]: https://youtu.be/MFfTqUQxFTs?t=883 https://youtu.be/MFfTqUQxFTs?t=883
- moocowtruck 8y ago
  you will have to forgive thanatos_dem, they most likely work somewhere similar to my last job..gigantic org..you can tell them 100 times the asteroid is coming, but they ignore it until almost impact. They also have a very entitled idea of software, where in my situation we used tons of IBM software for years and were pissed off when IBM came looking for their money.. WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT? our leaders even so called them thieves (funny since we were essentially stealing their software for years knowing full well it costs $$). Years later? nope not migrated away from the IBM stuff, who knew it takes tons of work when you ingrain in any tech for that long, and ya. a staff that needs training on the new direction etc etc. I say good for oracle looking to want compensation for support. And thanks to oracle for keeping it open source.. and well..your comments on the matter actually feel clearer than some of the information put out by oracle themselves hehe..
JohnFen 8y ago
> Java is deeply engrained in much of enterprise software, which is slow and difficult to change. Indeed. I work on enterprise software, and we have to provide Java components for companies that require it. None of our customers want or can use anything past Java 8, and we have no plans on supporting anything past Java 8 until someone squeals.
- owyn 8y ago
  Which is a bummer because JDK 9 added some nice convenience functions to the standard library. Like "transferTo" to avoid using like 6 utility functions just to move bytes around. It's stuff like this that will compile on JDK9 but won't run on JDK8 because the stdlib method isn't there that you kind of have to watch out for when deploying stuff on a machine that might be running an old JDK. But in general my engineering philosophy is it's usually worth it to keep things up to date, even if it's just because it makes the engineers happier. InputStream in = Main.class.getClassLoader().getResourceAsStream(filename); try { OutputStream out = new FileOutputStream(file); in.transferTo(out); // new in jdk 9! out.close(); } finally { in.close(); }
  - JohnFen 8y ago
    I understand your point. But realistically, if none of our customers want or can use anything beyond 8, the safest thing for us to to is to avoid upgrading our dev environment beyond 8. That way, nobody could accidentally use incompatible features. Personally, though, I really dislike Java regardless of the version being used. I'm hoping that some day I'll be able to foist this aspect of my job off on someone else -- then I won't have to worry about it!

pron 8y ago

> The licensing change was not given with nearly enough heads up for companies to properly assess their options and migrate to OpenJDK if they choose. I don't know what enough would be. This has been discussed and explained for at least a year. > it sure does seem like this was carefully planned to make it too difficult to move off the JDK that just got a lot more expensive to use. What? The change was that as of JDK 11, Oracle JDK and OpenJDK are the same software[1]. The same software that used to contain both free and commercial features, and that had field of use restriction is now 100% free and 100% open. If this is making it harder, I don't know what making it easier would be. If free is more expensive, I don't know what less expensive is. > My company is dropping Oracle JDK entirely and moving to Open JDK, and over time transitioning off of java wherever possible directly due of this change. Good, because that's what Oracle has been asking you to do[2]. Oracle JDK is now the name given to the same software sold with a commercial support subscription. If you don't want to buy support, don't use the package that includes it. > The general consensus of the Java leaders in our company is that this is a last ditch effort money grab by Oracle to leech money from Java, which was feared from the day that Sun was acquired. I am a bit concerned that the Java leaders in your company think that a money grab is taking a commerical offering and making it free. Oracle has now made the JDK 100% open source and free for the first time ever. To fund its development, it is also selling support for those who want it. [1]: https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/oracle-jdk-releases-for-java-11-and-later https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/oracle-jdk-rele... [2]: https://youtu.be/MFfTqUQxFTs?t=883 https://youtu.be/MFfTqUQxFTs?t=883

moocowtruck 8y ago
you will have to forgive thanatos_dem, they most likely work somewhere similar to my last job..gigantic org..you can tell them 100 times the asteroid is coming, but they ignore it until almost impact. They also have a very entitled idea of software, where in my situation we used tons of IBM software for years and were pissed off when IBM came looking for their money.. WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT? our leaders even so called them thieves (funny since we were essentially stealing their software for years knowing full well it costs $$). Years later? nope not migrated away from the IBM stuff, who knew it takes tons of work when you ingrain in any tech for that long, and ya. a staff that needs training on the new direction etc etc. I say good for oracle looking to want compensation for support. And thanks to oracle for keeping it open source.. and well..your comments on the matter actually feel clearer than some of the information put out by oracle themselves hehe..

JohnFen 8y ago

> Java is deeply engrained in much of enterprise software, which is slow and difficult to change. Indeed. I work on enterprise software, and we have to provide Java components for companies that require it. None of our customers want or can use anything past Java 8, and we have no plans on supporting anything past Java 8 until someone squeals.

owyn 8y ago
Which is a bummer because JDK 9 added some nice convenience functions to the standard library. Like "transferTo" to avoid using like 6 utility functions just to move bytes around. It's stuff like this that will compile on JDK9 but won't run on JDK8 because the stdlib method isn't there that you kind of have to watch out for when deploying stuff on a machine that might be running an old JDK. But in general my engineering philosophy is it's usually worth it to keep things up to date, even if it's just because it makes the engineers happier. InputStream in = Main.class.getClassLoader().getResourceAsStream(filename); try { OutputStream out = new FileOutputStream(file); in.transferTo(out); // new in jdk 9! out.close(); } finally { in.close(); }
- JohnFen 8y ago
  I understand your point. But realistically, if none of our customers want or can use anything beyond 8, the safest thing for us to to is to avoid upgrading our dev environment beyond 8. That way, nobody could accidentally use incompatible features. Personally, though, I really dislike Java regardless of the version being used. I'm hoping that some day I'll be able to foist this aspect of my job off on someone else -- then I won't have to worry about it!