4 ms·

Don't feel sorry, we are fine. Still the most free people on earth.

ohlookabird 7y ago
Clearly, it can vary a lot what people consider free. And therefore, this statement isn't true in general. The US does indeed have a lot of things I would consider freedoms, yes. But in Germany, for instance, I feel it is a great freedom to not have to worry about most healthcare issues, regardless of their income. A freedom (in my perspective) I wouldn't have in the US. There are other issues that fall into that category as well (free to not really have to worry about school shootings, free to not have to worry about people (including kids) to find a gun in the fields, free to not have to worry about insurance of people when having an accident, etc.).
- dnadler 7y ago
  That's a commonly made point, but to be a little pedantic you are definitely twisting the definition of the word 'freedom'. Those are benefits to be sure, and they may certainly be better than the US's, but not really 'freedoms'.
  - germinalphrase 7y ago
    Why aren’t they “freedoms”? Increased financial security due to eliminating the possibility of medical bankruptcy increases an individuals’ options/choices in life, does it not?
    - malvosenior 7y ago
      Freedom doesn't mean the same thing as "convenient for me". In fact freedom can often be difficult. Each item listed has an opposition position, most notably freedom to own a gun. Germany also has some of the most draconian anti-free speech laws of all first world nations, so I really don't think they're a good example to use as a pillar of freedom.
      - germinalphrase 7y ago
        The elimination of medical bankruptcy is a “convenience”?
        malvosenior 7y ago
        Yes, obviously anytime you get something for free that's a convenience. Someone has to pay for that though and that person is not experiencing freedom. I don't know much about the German healthcare system but it's quite possible that you also don't have as many choices for healthcare as in the US due to increased governmental regulation. I'd also add that healthcare is one of the least free aspects of US culture especially post-ACA. We are now mandated to have insurance, even if we don't want it.
        anoncake 7y ago
        > I don't know much about the German healthcare system but it's quite possible that you also don't have as many choices for healthcare as in the US due to increased governmental regulation. You have strictly more choices. In the USA, chances are you cant afford healthcare and have none.
        malvosenior 7y ago
        What if you can afford healthcare? Not everyone is poor. I suspect there is a great choice to be had in the US.
        anoncake 7y ago
        We shouldnt judge a healthcare system by how well it works for some lucky people.
        malvosenior 7y ago
        You can keep moving the goal posts but the fact is there is a lot of choice in the US. Not everyone can afford all choices but that’s an entirely different conversation.
- shadofx 7y ago
  It's easy to achieve such "freedoms" in a small ethnostate. Not so easy to do in the racially, economically diverse US.
  - petschge 7y ago
    Ah the popular "the US is too large and too diverse to function" excuse. Not that long ago the size and diversity was seen as a unique strength of the US. When did "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" become "societies only work when they are homogeneous"?
    - malvosenior 7y ago
      He didn't say that the US doesn't "work". Note that he put "freedoms" in quotes in reference to the parent comment that twisted the definition of freedom to include socialist programs. It's true those won't work in the US but as the original poster commented: > Don't feel sorry, we are fine.
  - nl 7y ago
    Australia is much more ethnically diverse than the US, and also does this successfully.
petschge 7y ago
You are not, you just have constant propaganda to that effect and you believe it because most of you never leave your country. And that is not just me personal opinion. Going over a (incomplete) sample of freedom indices listed on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices we have: Rank 6 on the Economic Freedom index https://www.fraserinstitute.org/economic-freedom/map?geozone=world&page=map&year=2016 https://www.fraserinstitute.org/economic-freedom/map?geozone... Rank 17 on the Human Freedom index https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/human-freedom-index-2018.pdf https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/human-fr... Rank 45 on the Press Freedom Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index Rank 10 on the World Index of Moral Freedom http://www.fundalib.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/World-Index-of-Moral-Freedom-2018.pdf http://www.fundalib.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/World-Ind... Rank 53 in the Freedom of the World index https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world-2018-table-country-scores https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world-2018-table-cou... Rank 12 in the Index of Economic Freedom https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking/ https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking/ That is not a bad score overall, but is a far cry from an unchallenged "we are the most free".
- jquery 7y ago
  Not saying “US NUMBAH ONE” but those indexes are just biased to whatever the index creators prefer. I could make one that heavily indexes gun rights, lack of hate speech laws, gross income per capita, or even military strength and suddenly we’re number one if not close to it. It would be just as valid a ranking. In other words those lists are largely rubbish. Never mind they rarely break things down by demographics, preferring to look the other way.
  - petschge 7y ago
    The problem with what you choose and how you weigh it is exactly why I listed more than one index. And btw: I did not skip over any index because it lists the US as number one, I only skipped indices that require registration to get the PDF and such. Literally NONE of the indices I found has the US as number one.
- 7y ago

Clearly, it can vary a lot what people consider free. And therefore, this statement isn't true in general. The US does indeed have a lot of things I would consider freedoms, yes. But in Germany, for instance, I feel it is a great freedom to not have to worry about most healthcare issues, regardless of their income. A freedom (in my perspective) I wouldn't have in the US. There are other issues that fall into that category as well (free to not really have to worry about school shootings, free to not have to worry about people (including kids) to find a gun in the fields, free to not have to worry about insurance of people when having an accident, etc.).

dnadler 7y ago
That's a commonly made point, but to be a little pedantic you are definitely twisting the definition of the word 'freedom'. Those are benefits to be sure, and they may certainly be better than the US's, but not really 'freedoms'.
- germinalphrase 7y ago
  Why aren’t they “freedoms”? Increased financial security due to eliminating the possibility of medical bankruptcy increases an individuals’ options/choices in life, does it not?
  - malvosenior 7y ago
    Freedom doesn't mean the same thing as "convenient for me". In fact freedom can often be difficult. Each item listed has an opposition position, most notably freedom to own a gun. Germany also has some of the most draconian anti-free speech laws of all first world nations, so I really don't think they're a good example to use as a pillar of freedom.
    - germinalphrase 7y ago
      The elimination of medical bankruptcy is a “convenience”?
      - malvosenior 7y ago
        Yes, obviously anytime you get something for free that's a convenience. Someone has to pay for that though and that person is not experiencing freedom. I don't know much about the German healthcare system but it's quite possible that you also don't have as many choices for healthcare as in the US due to increased governmental regulation. I'd also add that healthcare is one of the least free aspects of US culture especially post-ACA. We are now mandated to have insurance, even if we don't want it.
        anoncake 7y ago
        > I don't know much about the German healthcare system but it's quite possible that you also don't have as many choices for healthcare as in the US due to increased governmental regulation. You have strictly more choices. In the USA, chances are you cant afford healthcare and have none.
        malvosenior 7y ago
        What if you can afford healthcare? Not everyone is poor. I suspect there is a great choice to be had in the US.
        anoncake 7y ago
        We shouldnt judge a healthcare system by how well it works for some lucky people.
        malvosenior 7y ago
        You can keep moving the goal posts but the fact is there is a lot of choice in the US. Not everyone can afford all choices but that’s an entirely different conversation.
shadofx 7y ago
It's easy to achieve such "freedoms" in a small ethnostate. Not so easy to do in the racially, economically diverse US.
- petschge 7y ago
  Ah the popular "the US is too large and too diverse to function" excuse. Not that long ago the size and diversity was seen as a unique strength of the US. When did "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" become "societies only work when they are homogeneous"?
  - malvosenior 7y ago
    He didn't say that the US doesn't "work". Note that he put "freedoms" in quotes in reference to the parent comment that twisted the definition of freedom to include socialist programs. It's true those won't work in the US but as the original poster commented: > Don't feel sorry, we are fine.
- nl 7y ago
  Australia is much more ethnically diverse than the US, and also does this successfully.

petschge 7y ago

You are not, you just have constant propaganda to that effect and you believe it because most of you never leave your country. And that is not just me personal opinion. Going over a (incomplete) sample of freedom indices listed on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices we have: Rank 6 on the Economic Freedom index https://www.fraserinstitute.org/economic-freedom/map?geozone=world&page=map&year=2016 https://www.fraserinstitute.org/economic-freedom/map?geozone... Rank 17 on the Human Freedom index https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/human-freedom-index-2018.pdf https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/human-fr... Rank 45 on the Press Freedom Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index Rank 10 on the World Index of Moral Freedom http://www.fundalib.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/World-Index-of-Moral-Freedom-2018.pdf http://www.fundalib.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/World-Ind... Rank 53 in the Freedom of the World index https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world-2018-table-country-scores https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world-2018-table-cou... Rank 12 in the Index of Economic Freedom https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking/ https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking/ That is not a bad score overall, but is a far cry from an unchallenged "we are the most free".

jquery 7y ago
Not saying “US NUMBAH ONE” but those indexes are just biased to whatever the index creators prefer. I could make one that heavily indexes gun rights, lack of hate speech laws, gross income per capita, or even military strength and suddenly we’re number one if not close to it. It would be just as valid a ranking. In other words those lists are largely rubbish. Never mind they rarely break things down by demographics, preferring to look the other way.
- petschge 7y ago
  The problem with what you choose and how you weigh it is exactly why I listed more than one index. And btw: I did not skip over any index because it lists the US as number one, I only skipped indices that require registration to get the PDF and such. Literally NONE of the indices I found has the US as number one.
7y ago