4 ms·

I'm very much against hidden criteria used to filter people. It's a lazy, bias-driven way to convince yourself you're selecting the best people. The author of t

I'm very much against hidden criteria used to filter people. It's a lazy, bias-driven way to convince yourself you're selecting the best people. The author of the original tweet (who this person is replying to) is trying to select for some sort of work characteristic she thinks correlates with success. It would be much better to identify that characteristic and focus part of the interview on trying to evaluate the candidate against it. I haven't been hiring people for more than 10 years, but I swear by the simple process of being transparent about what I'm looking for in a new hire. The hard part is the reflection on exactly what that is. I wrote about this several years ago: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/were-hiring-engineers-all-wrong_b_7973484 https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/were-hiring-engineers-a.... It's basically a re-presentation of interview training I've gotten.

baddox 8y ago
What evidence is there that the author of original hiring tweet thinks that sending thank you emails correlates with success? The person doesn’t claim that, and it would be such a preposterous belief that I would be shocked to hear them claim to hold it. My interpretation was merely that the author of the tweet likes people to behave according to some supposed social norm, and punishes people who don’t by refusing to hire them.
- acjohnson55 8y ago
  From the article: > How someone presents in interviews might not translate to effectiveness in the role. While sending a thank-you note doesn't necessarily guarantee the person will be a good hire, it gives you the tiniest bit more data: The candidate is eager, organized, and well mannered enough to send the note. It shows resourcefulness, too, because the candidate often has to hunt down an email address the interviewer never gave them. At Insider Inc., we look to hire "good eggs." The thank-you email is a mark for the good-egg column. Maybe I'm extrapolating and she doesn't view "good egg" as part of being successful employee, but I think that's what she's getting at. I believe she's trying to identify soft skills at collaboration. That's my most charitable interpretation. Either that, or she's trying to identify people who share her cultural norms, which is problematic in itself.
  - tomp 8y ago
    > That's my most charitable interpretation. Either that, or she's trying to identify people who share her cultural norms, which is problematic in itself. I agree with the rest of your comment, but I find the above attitude problematic in itself. There's nothing wrong with filtering for cultural norms, you've all right to select the people you'll be spending most of your non-sleeping life with. For example, I don't really want to work with someone who's anti-gay (i.e. I want them to share my "live and let live" cultural norm), even though that's clearly a cultural norm for many people all over the world.
    - acjohnson55 8y ago
      There should be a distinction between the values of a company and the cultural norms. The idea I've adopted is value-fit / culture-add. The values are non-negotiables. To take your example, for any company I work for or manage for, it must be a place where gay people--for example--are welcome and comfortable being themselves. Cultural norms are a different story. I want my hires to add to our company's pool of cultural perspectives. This means they may have behaviors that diverge from present norms. This can be disruptive, but I think it's a net win in over time. If accepting cultural diversity is a value, it doesn't eliminate disruption, but it certainly makes it less painful. To me, whether someone does or doesn't send a thank you note does not speak to the explicit or implicit values of any place I've been to. It's in pure norm space. And even then, it doesn't say much to me. I appreciate receiving thank-you notes on a human level, but it does nothing for me in making a hiring decision.
    - baddox 8y ago
      It is certainly pretty weird to think that it's important to spend your time at work all day with people who send thank you emails after job interviews, especially given that they won't be doing any more job interviews with you while they work there.
- trickstra 8y ago
  Using ones position to deal punishments for deviation from supposed social norms, neat. I bet that's not what stands in her contract
Cthulhu_ 8y ago
> I'm very much against hidden criteria used to filter people. I'm not, or at least, not everything should be spelled out; what you want to avoid is people 'cheating' at their job interview by trying to bullshit their way through the application process. We have a technical assessment, but look at (and ask a lot of) things outside of what was asked exactly; basic expected software development skills such as unit testing, documentation, a grasp of technology used, a drive to keep up to date and learn new things, that kinda thing. I guess you could fake those? But I think that if you've got the drive to "fake" learn a new technology you've got the drive we're looking for.
- acjohnson55 8y ago
  I'm just not that concerned about fakes faking their way in. Maybe it's a problem other folks have experienced, but it's not one I've had.
- tomp 8y ago
  But if you don't tell the candidate what to do, how do you know if the candidate can do that or not? Most programming exercises that companies use in interviews are much simpler (trivial really) than actual software projects, and personally I don't see the need to write 1 page of documentation and unittests for code that can fit on 3 pages... Does that mean I'm against documentation and can't write unittests? No, I'm simply being pragmatic.

baddox 8y ago

What evidence is there that the author of original hiring tweet thinks that sending thank you emails correlates with success? The person doesn’t claim that, and it would be such a preposterous belief that I would be shocked to hear them claim to hold it. My interpretation was merely that the author of the tweet likes people to behave according to some supposed social norm, and punishes people who don’t by refusing to hire them.

acjohnson55 8y ago
From the article: > How someone presents in interviews might not translate to effectiveness in the role. While sending a thank-you note doesn't necessarily guarantee the person will be a good hire, it gives you the tiniest bit more data: The candidate is eager, organized, and well mannered enough to send the note. It shows resourcefulness, too, because the candidate often has to hunt down an email address the interviewer never gave them. At Insider Inc., we look to hire "good eggs." The thank-you email is a mark for the good-egg column. Maybe I'm extrapolating and she doesn't view "good egg" as part of being successful employee, but I think that's what she's getting at. I believe she's trying to identify soft skills at collaboration. That's my most charitable interpretation. Either that, or she's trying to identify people who share her cultural norms, which is problematic in itself.
- tomp 8y ago
  > That's my most charitable interpretation. Either that, or she's trying to identify people who share her cultural norms, which is problematic in itself. I agree with the rest of your comment, but I find the above attitude problematic in itself. There's nothing wrong with filtering for cultural norms, you've all right to select the people you'll be spending most of your non-sleeping life with. For example, I don't really want to work with someone who's anti-gay (i.e. I want them to share my "live and let live" cultural norm), even though that's clearly a cultural norm for many people all over the world.
  - acjohnson55 8y ago
    There should be a distinction between the values of a company and the cultural norms. The idea I've adopted is value-fit / culture-add. The values are non-negotiables. To take your example, for any company I work for or manage for, it must be a place where gay people--for example--are welcome and comfortable being themselves. Cultural norms are a different story. I want my hires to add to our company's pool of cultural perspectives. This means they may have behaviors that diverge from present norms. This can be disruptive, but I think it's a net win in over time. If accepting cultural diversity is a value, it doesn't eliminate disruption, but it certainly makes it less painful. To me, whether someone does or doesn't send a thank you note does not speak to the explicit or implicit values of any place I've been to. It's in pure norm space. And even then, it doesn't say much to me. I appreciate receiving thank-you notes on a human level, but it does nothing for me in making a hiring decision.
  - baddox 8y ago
    It is certainly pretty weird to think that it's important to spend your time at work all day with people who send thank you emails after job interviews, especially given that they won't be doing any more job interviews with you while they work there.
trickstra 8y ago
Using ones position to deal punishments for deviation from supposed social norms, neat. I bet that's not what stands in her contract

Cthulhu_ 8y ago

> I'm very much against hidden criteria used to filter people. I'm not, or at least, not everything should be spelled out; what you want to avoid is people 'cheating' at their job interview by trying to bullshit their way through the application process. We have a technical assessment, but look at (and ask a lot of) things outside of what was asked exactly; basic expected software development skills such as unit testing, documentation, a grasp of technology used, a drive to keep up to date and learn new things, that kinda thing. I guess you could fake those? But I think that if you've got the drive to "fake" learn a new technology you've got the drive we're looking for.

acjohnson55 8y ago
I'm just not that concerned about fakes faking their way in. Maybe it's a problem other folks have experienced, but it's not one I've had.
tomp 8y ago
But if you don't tell the candidate what to do, how do you know if the candidate can do that or not? Most programming exercises that companies use in interviews are much simpler (trivial really) than actual software projects, and personally I don't see the need to write 1 page of documentation and unittests for code that can fit on 3 pages... Does that mean I'm against documentation and can't write unittests? No, I'm simply being pragmatic.