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The thing that baffles me - why the hell has there never been any innovation in the form of making it easier to diagnose a problem and move through the necessar

by kbos87 8y ago

The thing that baffles me - why the hell has there never been any innovation in the form of making it easier to diagnose a problem and move through the necessary steps in a checklist beyond fumbling through a paper manual? In a situation where seconds count, it seems illogical that this has never been improved upon. Didn’t at least one of these planes crash because the pilots are believed to have only gotten X number of steps through a list of possible reasons?

InTheArena 8y ago
The entire aviation business and safety structure is build on extraordinary rigidity to processes and approaches. In addition, automation is viewed as a threat to multiple worker groups. Sometimes this is justified -certainly the MCAS incident is a example. Changes like the MCAS should never have been allowed to change a fundamental part of the airplane interface without considerably more processes being met. That said, sometimes opposition to enhancements is trade unionists being trade unionists.
Qqqwxs 8y ago
I remember hearing about the US Airways flight that had an emergency landing in the Hudson river (the film 'Sully' is based on this). The plane sunk faster than it should have because the checklist item 'close the vents' was too far down to be completed before the water landing. In response, the checklist was edited and the item was moved further to the top. Apologies for not finding an exact link, but here is the wikipedia article for the flight: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/US_Airways_Flight_1549 https://www.wikiwand.com/en/US_Airways_Flight_1549
bdonlan 8y ago
The newer airbuses actually do have electronic checklists including - for at least some steps - automatic detection that the step has been completed. You can see an example of the electronic checklist in this simulator video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzjyr0UZKRw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzjyr0UZKRw Even on aircraft without fully integrated checklists, many operators have switched to using iPads instead of paper manuals as well.
- pinewurst 8y ago
  So do the new platform (e.g. not 737) Boeings. The retention of paper on 737MAX is all about not changing anything to avoid having pilots require simulator training. It's also why it has a glass cockpit that mostly shows digitized versions of the 60s gauges.
jonas21 8y ago
As mentioned in the article, other Boeing jets do automatically present a checklist on the display when they detect a problem: > A second electronic system found on other Boeing jets also alerts pilots to unusual or hazardous situations during flight and lays out recommended steps to resolve them. The 737 is stuck in the past because given the choice, nobody wants to have to retrain their pilots on more modern systems.
- EricE 8y ago
  >The 737 is stuck in the past because given the choice, nobody wants to have to retrain their pilots on more modern systems. Ding ding ding!
- stallmanite 8y ago
  Why is anyone being given the choice?
- dclowd9901 8y ago
  Capitalism wins again.
cryptonector 8y ago
Air France flight 447 had too many alarms go off, and the pilots could not cope. Turns out that getting mid-flight problem diagnostics right is a really difficult problem. Now, in the Air France flight, part of the problem was the system trying harder than it should have: it would have sufficed to alert the pilots to the lack of air speed indication and let them figure out what to do, but instead the computers cascade alarm after alarm. You can see the problem: various pieces of the system were engineered separately, and there was no single system that could have suppressed the downstream alarms so that the pilots could focus on first on understanding the first alarm. Then again, that too might not have been a good design: perhaps a stall alarm should take precedence, say, over a frozen pitot alarm.
- sleavey 8y ago
  There is a caveat to the Air France 447 crash, that the pilots apparently relied too heavily on the autopilot. When the alarms came on mid-flight, neither pilot was familiar with the current state of the plane and found it more difficult to diagnose the problems. One of the recommendations to come out of that crash was that pilots on long flights should occasionally switch back to manual control to keep themselves synced with the aircraft's state.

by kbos87 8y ago

InTheArena 8y ago

The entire aviation business and safety structure is build on extraordinary rigidity to processes and approaches. In addition, automation is viewed as a threat to multiple worker groups. Sometimes this is justified -certainly the MCAS incident is a example. Changes like the MCAS should never have been allowed to change a fundamental part of the airplane interface without considerably more processes being met. That said, sometimes opposition to enhancements is trade unionists being trade unionists.

Qqqwxs 8y ago

I remember hearing about the US Airways flight that had an emergency landing in the Hudson river (the film 'Sully' is based on this). The plane sunk faster than it should have because the checklist item 'close the vents' was too far down to be completed before the water landing. In response, the checklist was edited and the item was moved further to the top. Apologies for not finding an exact link, but here is the wikipedia article for the flight: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/US_Airways_Flight_1549 https://www.wikiwand.com/en/US_Airways_Flight_1549

bdonlan 8y ago

The newer airbuses actually do have electronic checklists including - for at least some steps - automatic detection that the step has been completed. You can see an example of the electronic checklist in this simulator video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzjyr0UZKRw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzjyr0UZKRw Even on aircraft without fully integrated checklists, many operators have switched to using iPads instead of paper manuals as well.

pinewurst 8y ago
So do the new platform (e.g. not 737) Boeings. The retention of paper on 737MAX is all about not changing anything to avoid having pilots require simulator training. It's also why it has a glass cockpit that mostly shows digitized versions of the 60s gauges.

jonas21 8y ago

As mentioned in the article, other Boeing jets do automatically present a checklist on the display when they detect a problem: > A second electronic system found on other Boeing jets also alerts pilots to unusual or hazardous situations during flight and lays out recommended steps to resolve them. The 737 is stuck in the past because given the choice, nobody wants to have to retrain their pilots on more modern systems.

EricE 8y ago
>The 737 is stuck in the past because given the choice, nobody wants to have to retrain their pilots on more modern systems. Ding ding ding!
stallmanite 8y ago
Why is anyone being given the choice?
dclowd9901 8y ago
Capitalism wins again.

cryptonector 8y ago

Air France flight 447 had too many alarms go off, and the pilots could not cope. Turns out that getting mid-flight problem diagnostics right is a really difficult problem. Now, in the Air France flight, part of the problem was the system trying harder than it should have: it would have sufficed to alert the pilots to the lack of air speed indication and let them figure out what to do, but instead the computers cascade alarm after alarm. You can see the problem: various pieces of the system were engineered separately, and there was no single system that could have suppressed the downstream alarms so that the pilots could focus on first on understanding the first alarm. Then again, that too might not have been a good design: perhaps a stall alarm should take precedence, say, over a frozen pitot alarm.

sleavey 8y ago
There is a caveat to the Air France 447 crash, that the pilots apparently relied too heavily on the autopilot. When the alarms came on mid-flight, neither pilot was familiar with the current state of the plane and found it more difficult to diagnose the problems. One of the recommendations to come out of that crash was that pilots on long flights should occasionally switch back to manual control to keep themselves synced with the aircraft's state.