7 ms·

Chicago is tracking kids with GPS monitors that can record them without consent

53 points by 0xmohit 8y ago

kemiller2002 8y ago
My favorite line: "To the court’s knowledge, no probation officer has used the device in violation of the law" Which implies, they can, they just haven't yet or no one has caught them.
- moate 8y ago
  Or they do, but they haven't been caught not catching them. As long as they have plausible deniability right?
amatecha 8y ago
I keep typing messages and deleting them because I can't possibly sum up my disgust with this whole approach.
- malikNF 8y ago
  This and the other front-page article about the prison video call system makes me wonder, just who are these engineers that are helping build this kind of evil systems? What's the difference between them and some war criminal "just following orders"?
  - amatecha 8y ago
    "Are we the baddies"? heh ;)
Animats 8y ago
With 5G, every felon can be so equipped.
- HeWhoLurksLate 8y ago
  > With 4G, every felon can do so right now [1] FTFY [1] See all the posts on bounty hunters as of late.
sodosopa 8y ago
The title is a little more clickbaty than what it is. It's an ankle monitor for when kids are on house arrest for juvenile crimes. > On March 29, court officials in Chicago strapped an ankle monitor onto Shawn, a 15-year-old awaiting trial on charges of armed robbery. They explained that the device would need to be charged for two hours a day and that it would track his movements using GPS technology. He was told he would have to be given permission to leave his house, even to go to school. But he found out that through his monitor, officers wouldn’t just be able to track his location, as most electronic monitors do. They would also be able to speak—and listen—to him. and > In January, Cook County, home of Chicago, awarded a contract to the electronic monitoring company Track Group, which will lease 275 ankle monitors to keep tabs on children awaiting trial.
- djtriptych 8y ago
  Not clickbaity enough. Chicago is tracking kids and listening to potentially anyone in the city without consent.
  - rayiner 8y ago
    “Kids” awaiting trial for armed robbery. (The infantilization of teenagers is ridiculous. For most of human history, young men at 15 were fighting wars. If you’re old enough to rob someone with a gun, you’re not a “kid.” Under certain circumstances it also may not be reasonable to treat you like an adult for purposes of the law, but calling the accused a “kid” is a disingenuous way to try to downplay the seriousness of his conduct.)
    - crooked-v 8y ago
      Using scare quotes doesn't change the fact that these are children.
      - monksy 8y ago
        > these are children. that were old enough to hold up a gun/knife to someone and make a demand.
djtriptych 8y ago
Is it even true that more surveillance = lower costs / safer streets? Regardless, this program should be struck down on constitutional grounds as you're almost guaranteed to infringe on the rights of 3rd parties when listening in on minors of all people. Totally absurd.
- Nextgrid 8y ago
  I have doubts about that. These spy devices don't actually prevent anyone from re-offending, and if anything could give the state a false sense of security (I can't imagine it being too difficult to take off the device without it noticing, as to make it look like everything is fine when you're actually on the run).
- ColanR 8y ago
  The UK is probably a decent piece of evidence that it's not true.
Nextgrid 8y ago
Just wondering as to why these devices are used to begin with? They don't prevent someone from re-offending or disappearing by just removing the device and destroying it, so why use it in the first place? If someone can be trusted to not re-offend nor disappear then just trust them without the device, if someone can't be trusted then how is this device going to change anything? They'll just get rid of it and disappear at the earliest opportunity anyway.
- rayiner 8y ago
  I don’t agree with your premises. These aren’t elite criminals. They can’t flee the country or go into hiding. For the most part they’re low level offenders that run in bad crowds and made some bad decisions. But they still live in the community and are dependent on it. It is not hard to believe that a constant auditory monitor would change their behavior patterns.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- rolph 8y ago
  It isnt so much about the kid wearing the device as it as about the environment the kid is hanging around in. the idea of acoustic monitoring is a slippery slope, and is rife with zero days, also sounds like it could be dangerous to the wearer, to be somewhere, and have a government agent call up while a bunch of thugs are present, thugs who now know that kid has a monitor, that a] records a GPS track b] has a microphone that heard what they were saying c] has been recording everything for how long? d] the kids a rat, punish him! If you get arrested and probated as a result of your friends instigations then you need new friends so the shunning may be good but the physical retaliation risk is another.
droithomme 8y ago
Let's just fast forward 10 years and deploy these to everyone because if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear. That's what they keep telling me!
wolfpwner 8y ago
Black Mirror Arkangel is coming to reality!
pmiller2 8y ago
>Milhizer said in an emailed statement, ... that the communications feature is used “to inform the juvenile if the battery is low or that he or she entered an exclusionary zone where there is somebody or a place they must avoid.” Bullshit. If that was all it was, then a warning alarm would be enough. They could also have had a warning alarm to indicate when to call into the monitoring center. Such a device would be so easy to operate, a dog could be trained to do it (http://www.iaadp.org/rescue-phone.html http://www.iaadp.org/rescue-phone.html).
- lotu 8y ago
  I don't know, building system that handles all complex cases and can respond intelligently to any 16 year old is hard. Having a human in the loop that calls you up and says, "Remember you have to plug the device in." is going to be a lot more effective than a blinking red light or an auditory beep when the batteries are low, (after all the user might be asleep when that happens), a human would be able to remind the user before the battery is low or even escalate to another human for example calling a parent to remind the child in person. It is fair to question if this extra flexibility is worth the cost in privacy. Though personally I think the GPS monitor is a much bigger incursion on privacy, but I think we generally accept that the benefits outweigh the costs in this situation.f If you don't think this for communication as described what do you think it is for? I don't think covert surveillance makes sense because the wearer is already going feel surveilled (that is kinda the literal point of the device). Sarah Staudt, Chicago Appleseed Fund for Justice, obtusely suggests the device is for sexual deviants. > The idea that an adult can turn on a listening device while a child is, say, in the bathroom or in their bedroom is not good. I presume she is referring to the fact this is where children masterbate/have sex, as otherwise listening to a person sleep or use the bathroom really is not interesting or particularly hard to do (though if you do that is kinda creepy). Anyways, this feels like way too much work if you just want to listen to 16 year old sexy-time, and the decision makers (like the mayor or chief prosecutor) isn't even going be in a position where they get to abuse the system to do that. Perhaps this is a form of public corruption? Build an unneeded system in exchange for kickbacks this feels the most plausible but I don't see anything here that would make this more likely the case for the system mentioned in the article over any random public contract.
RandomInteger4 8y ago
What's more damaging to the future of these kids? An ankle bracelet or juvenile detention? It seems easy to have a knee jerk reaction to this, but you have to understand that these ankle bracelets aren't being just randomly slapped on innocent kids. They're being placed on kids that have committed crimes or are awaiting trial. This is a lot better than the alternative to getting locked away where worse things can happen to them.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
lotu 8y ago
This article shows many issues with society but the title is super click-baity. It doesn't mention that it is talking about juvenile offenders, leaving the reader to assume Chicago is picking arbitrary children and tracking them. Furthermore, the main point of the article is not about GPS monitors, as those are already long accepted, as a condition of release, but instead about a two-way auto-pick-up call system built into the device, and the fact those calls are recorded. Also lot of the issues they talk about go beyond the main privacy focused thrust behind adding a two wall call system to GPS tracking bracelets. How kids can get re-arrested because they forgot to charge the device, or are humiliated and effectively drop out of school because the device beeps in class, or are unable to eat because they are not permitted to leave their house which has no food because their family is poor. These are real issues and deserves more attention, it is a shame that we only see because there is a clickbait headline. The problem isn't this specific feature being added to these devices, but rather a larger "emergent system" that is the result of many individuals and organizations acting independently and in a self interested fashion. As a society we have not managed to ensure the moral character of those with power over other people. Technology isn't the cause or the solution to this problem because the problem is the people. People will find ways use things to be cruel or kind to each other regardless of of if that thing is latest advances in telecommunications or just fist sized rock.

53 points by 0xmohit 8y ago

kemiller2002 8y ago

My favorite line: "To the court’s knowledge, no probation officer has used the device in violation of the law" Which implies, they can, they just haven't yet or no one has caught them.

moate 8y ago
Or they do, but they haven't been caught not catching them. As long as they have plausible deniability right?

amatecha 8y ago

I keep typing messages and deleting them because I can't possibly sum up my disgust with this whole approach.

malikNF 8y ago
This and the other front-page article about the prison video call system makes me wonder, just who are these engineers that are helping build this kind of evil systems? What's the difference between them and some war criminal "just following orders"?
- amatecha 8y ago
  "Are we the baddies"? heh ;)

Animats 8y ago

With 5G, every felon can be so equipped.

HeWhoLurksLate 8y ago
> With 4G, every felon can do so right now [1] FTFY [1] See all the posts on bounty hunters as of late.

sodosopa 8y ago

The title is a little more clickbaty than what it is. It's an ankle monitor for when kids are on house arrest for juvenile crimes. > On March 29, court officials in Chicago strapped an ankle monitor onto Shawn, a 15-year-old awaiting trial on charges of armed robbery. They explained that the device would need to be charged for two hours a day and that it would track his movements using GPS technology. He was told he would have to be given permission to leave his house, even to go to school. But he found out that through his monitor, officers wouldn’t just be able to track his location, as most electronic monitors do. They would also be able to speak—and listen—to him. and > In January, Cook County, home of Chicago, awarded a contract to the electronic monitoring company Track Group, which will lease 275 ankle monitors to keep tabs on children awaiting trial.

djtriptych 8y ago
Not clickbaity enough. Chicago is tracking kids and listening to potentially anyone in the city without consent.
- rayiner 8y ago
  “Kids” awaiting trial for armed robbery. (The infantilization of teenagers is ridiculous. For most of human history, young men at 15 were fighting wars. If you’re old enough to rob someone with a gun, you’re not a “kid.” Under certain circumstances it also may not be reasonable to treat you like an adult for purposes of the law, but calling the accused a “kid” is a disingenuous way to try to downplay the seriousness of his conduct.)
  - crooked-v 8y ago
    Using scare quotes doesn't change the fact that these are children.
    - monksy 8y ago
      > these are children. that were old enough to hold up a gun/knife to someone and make a demand.

djtriptych 8y ago

Is it even true that more surveillance = lower costs / safer streets? Regardless, this program should be struck down on constitutional grounds as you're almost guaranteed to infringe on the rights of 3rd parties when listening in on minors of all people. Totally absurd.

Nextgrid 8y ago
I have doubts about that. These spy devices don't actually prevent anyone from re-offending, and if anything could give the state a false sense of security (I can't imagine it being too difficult to take off the device without it noticing, as to make it look like everything is fine when you're actually on the run).
ColanR 8y ago
The UK is probably a decent piece of evidence that it's not true.

Nextgrid 8y ago

Just wondering as to why these devices are used to begin with? They don't prevent someone from re-offending or disappearing by just removing the device and destroying it, so why use it in the first place? If someone can be trusted to not re-offend nor disappear then just trust them without the device, if someone can't be trusted then how is this device going to change anything? They'll just get rid of it and disappear at the earliest opportunity anyway.

rayiner 8y ago
I don’t agree with your premises. These aren’t elite criminals. They can’t flee the country or go into hiding. For the most part they’re low level offenders that run in bad crowds and made some bad decisions. But they still live in the community and are dependent on it. It is not hard to believe that a constant auditory monitor would change their behavior patterns.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
rolph 8y ago
It isnt so much about the kid wearing the device as it as about the environment the kid is hanging around in. the idea of acoustic monitoring is a slippery slope, and is rife with zero days, also sounds like it could be dangerous to the wearer, to be somewhere, and have a government agent call up while a bunch of thugs are present, thugs who now know that kid has a monitor, that a] records a GPS track b] has a microphone that heard what they were saying c] has been recording everything for how long? d] the kids a rat, punish him! If you get arrested and probated as a result of your friends instigations then you need new friends so the shunning may be good but the physical retaliation risk is another.

droithomme 8y ago

Let's just fast forward 10 years and deploy these to everyone because if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear. That's what they keep telling me!

wolfpwner 8y ago

Black Mirror Arkangel is coming to reality!

pmiller2 8y ago

>Milhizer said in an emailed statement, ... that the communications feature is used “to inform the juvenile if the battery is low or that he or she entered an exclusionary zone where there is somebody or a place they must avoid.” Bullshit. If that was all it was, then a warning alarm would be enough. They could also have had a warning alarm to indicate when to call into the monitoring center. Such a device would be so easy to operate, a dog could be trained to do it (http://www.iaadp.org/rescue-phone.html http://www.iaadp.org/rescue-phone.html).

lotu 8y ago
I don't know, building system that handles all complex cases and can respond intelligently to any 16 year old is hard. Having a human in the loop that calls you up and says, "Remember you have to plug the device in." is going to be a lot more effective than a blinking red light or an auditory beep when the batteries are low, (after all the user might be asleep when that happens), a human would be able to remind the user before the battery is low or even escalate to another human for example calling a parent to remind the child in person. It is fair to question if this extra flexibility is worth the cost in privacy. Though personally I think the GPS monitor is a much bigger incursion on privacy, but I think we generally accept that the benefits outweigh the costs in this situation.f If you don't think this for communication as described what do you think it is for? I don't think covert surveillance makes sense because the wearer is already going feel surveilled (that is kinda the literal point of the device). Sarah Staudt, Chicago Appleseed Fund for Justice, obtusely suggests the device is for sexual deviants. > The idea that an adult can turn on a listening device while a child is, say, in the bathroom or in their bedroom is not good. I presume she is referring to the fact this is where children masterbate/have sex, as otherwise listening to a person sleep or use the bathroom really is not interesting or particularly hard to do (though if you do that is kinda creepy). Anyways, this feels like way too much work if you just want to listen to 16 year old sexy-time, and the decision makers (like the mayor or chief prosecutor) isn't even going be in a position where they get to abuse the system to do that. Perhaps this is a form of public corruption? Build an unneeded system in exchange for kickbacks this feels the most plausible but I don't see anything here that would make this more likely the case for the system mentioned in the article over any random public contract.

RandomInteger4 8y ago

What's more damaging to the future of these kids? An ankle bracelet or juvenile detention? It seems easy to have a knee jerk reaction to this, but you have to understand that these ankle bracelets aren't being just randomly slapped on innocent kids. They're being placed on kids that have committed crimes or are awaiting trial. This is a lot better than the alternative to getting locked away where worse things can happen to them.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

lotu 8y ago

This article shows many issues with society but the title is super click-baity. It doesn't mention that it is talking about juvenile offenders, leaving the reader to assume Chicago is picking arbitrary children and tracking them. Furthermore, the main point of the article is not about GPS monitors, as those are already long accepted, as a condition of release, but instead about a two-way auto-pick-up call system built into the device, and the fact those calls are recorded. Also lot of the issues they talk about go beyond the main privacy focused thrust behind adding a two wall call system to GPS tracking bracelets. How kids can get re-arrested because they forgot to charge the device, or are humiliated and effectively drop out of school because the device beeps in class, or are unable to eat because they are not permitted to leave their house which has no food because their family is poor. These are real issues and deserves more attention, it is a shame that we only see because there is a clickbait headline. The problem isn't this specific feature being added to these devices, but rather a larger "emergent system" that is the result of many individuals and organizations acting independently and in a self interested fashion. As a society we have not managed to ensure the moral character of those with power over other people. Technology isn't the cause or the solution to this problem because the problem is the people. People will find ways use things to be cruel or kind to each other regardless of of if that thing is latest advances in telecommunications or just fist sized rock.