19 ms·

Public Sans – A strong, neutral typeface for text or display

1310 points by thinkalone 7y ago

philips 7y ago
The github page has more info https://github.com/uswds/public-sans/blob/master/README.md#design-principles https://github.com/uswds/public-sans/blob/master/README.md#d...
2bitencryption 7y ago
This is so interesting. These modern sites clash really hard with my mental visual of "Government technology." And it led me to this, which is maybe even more interesting: https://federalist.18f.gov/ https://federalist.18f.gov/
- TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
  It's not government if it's not printed in IBM Courier!
  - NikolaNovak 7y ago
    Erm, IBM Plex, of course... ;-) https://github.com/IBM/plex https://github.com/IBM/plex
- timdiggerm 7y ago
  If only the Forest Service sites could use their templates
  - britta 7y ago
    The Forest Service worked with 18F on this Open Forest project to enable people to buy Christmas tree permits online, which uses United States Web Design System components: https://openforest.fs.usda.gov/christmas-trees/forests https://openforest.fs.usda.gov/christmas-trees/forests You can learn more about that project here, including the open source code: https://18f.gsa.gov/what-we-deliver/forest-service/ https://18f.gsa.gov/what-we-deliver/forest-service/ - and a few blog posts about it: https://18f.gsa.gov/tags/forest-service/ https://18f.gsa.gov/tags/forest-service/ Both that Forest Service project and Federalist run on cloud.gov, which is a Platform as a Service operated by 18F. (I work for 18F but don't officially represent it here.)
    - dpcx 7y ago
      https://openforest.fs.usda.gov/christmas-trees/forests https://openforest.fs.usda.gov/christmas-trees/forests has a pretty heavy dependency on Javascript (read: there's no fallback to anything non-javascript, so I get a white page). It feels like that goes against some of the things that 18F is about.
      - Someone1234 7y ago
        Pages don't need a fallback to non-Javascript in 2019. Accessibility technologies now fully support a JS enabled web, with accessibility standards following suit. That leaves only those who have voluntarily disabled JavaScript (<1% of users), but fortunately those users are typically aware of how to resolve the issue of their own creation. I've worked on public facing government websites (not 18F). We simply don't support this edge case, and our legal department supports our legal right to do so (in particular in relation to ADA requirements).
        dpcx 7y ago
        Thank you for the response. I wasn't trying to suggest that it was a requirement, simply that it seemed odd that there would be no fallback whatsoever. I guess I'm behind the times.
        logfromblammo 7y ago
        No, you're not. The times are just circling back around to form over function again. Since we keep revisiting this, you might say that you're ahead of the times.
        saagarjha 7y ago
        > Pages don't need a fallback to non-Javascript in 2019. Strongly disagree. Having your page completely break instead of degrading gracefully puts up a barrier to those who cannot run JavaScript (for example, users with older, weaker computers).
- archgoon 7y ago
  The USDS (US Digital Service) was born in the fire of the healthcare.gov fiasco, and several industry veterans from Google stepped in to fix the infrastructure issues they saw within the US Government. Currently, @Matt_Cutts is leading the org. I can only think that your comment brings a smile to his face.
  - amaccuish 7y ago
    Also inspired by the UK version: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Digital_Service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Digital_Service
  - noir_lord 7y ago
    IIRC the USDS is also in part based on GDS[1] who did (and continue to do) a really good job at dragging parts of the government kicking and screaming into the future. https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/government-digital-service https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/government-digit...
  - president 7y ago
    Does anyone know what it's like working for the USDS? Curious what it's like to work for the Government but under the leadership of presumably a bunch of ex-Googlers.
    - SamWhited 7y ago
      I really wanted to work for the USDS for a while. I'd still like to, but the invasiveness of an SF-86 which is required for some reason even if you don't need a security clearance, drug testing (I'd pass, but I'm not okay with requiring one anyways), and the fact that I'd have to move to D.C. make the sacrifice a big thing to weigh against the public good you'd be able to do. It's a tough call.
      - eddietejeda 7y ago
        USDS's requirement to be in DC is a tough ask, but necessary given the work they do. At 18F, we travel to DC a couple of times a year, but we are mostly remote. There are significant hubs in SF, NYC, DC, and CHI, but the remote culture is the most successful I've seen.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  18F is great and I hope they end up "fixing" all of the government's websites.
- eddietejeda 7y ago
  Yup. I run Federalist at 18F and absolutely love the work, the challenge and colleagues. We do everything in the open, so feel free to follow our work here: https://github.com/18F/federalist https://github.com/18F/federalist We also implement the USWDS, which you can follow here: https://github.com/18F/federalist-uswds-jekyll https://github.com/18F/federalist-uswds-jekyll Let me know if you have any questions!
  - milquetoastaf 7y ago
    Are y'all hiring :D
  - siavosh 7y ago
    Curious to hear if your group is still well supported budget wise?
    - eddietejeda 7y ago
      Although we are part of the government, we operate as a business unit that must pay for itself to exist. To do this, we have to charge other agencies for our services. My group is "cost-recoverable," meaning, that we are longer losing money and can reinvest back into the product. You will notice our Github activity picked up recently and even more significant changes are coming soon. So, I'd say we are in the best shape we've ever been.
      - bredren 7y ago
        Can you comment on what organizations are your biggest customers? Are you concerned about austerity measures / cutbacks affecting customer budgets?
        freehunter 7y ago
        >Are you concerned about austerity measures / cutbacks affecting customer budgets? Isn't every business or organization concerned about various economic forces affecting their customer budgets?
- karmelapple 7y ago
  I’ve found Boston’s city websites [1] to have a nice user experience and fantastic branding that ties in not just all the city’s web properties, but also some official postal mail flyers from the city, printed placards and signage at City Hall, and more. I haven’t noticed this strong of a branding in other cities I’ve lived, but would love to see examples of others. Boston even maintains its code on github! [2] Their digital department also has a roadmap of what their initiatives are, and it’s communicated in what I think is such an easily digestible manner [3] Bravo to their digital team! [1] https://www.boston.gov/ https://www.boston.gov/ [2] https://github.com/CityOfBoston https://github.com/CityOfBoston [3] https://www.boston.gov/departments/digital-team/digital-team-roadmap https://www.boston.gov/departments/digital-team/digital-team...
- andrewshadura 7y ago
  Have you seen gov.uk?
  - pastor_elm 7y ago
    no
ocdtrekkie 7y ago
The question neither this page nor the GitHub answers is... why? I understand a lot of corporations did their own fonts to escape font licensing. Is there fonts the government is currently licensing and trying to get out from under? Where will I see this font? Is there a reason other open source fonts weren't already adequate?
- saagarjha 7y ago
  I feel like this might be a nice way to brand a website as an "official government website".
- legitster 7y ago
  It undercuts vendors. I could totally see a local government org being put through the ringer for every bit and bob of a website. If there is already an established font choice, that's one less widget they are being charged for.
- crazygringo 7y ago
  A typeface is a key part of an organization's visual identity. A typeface expresses many things, you can imagine it as different sliders along, say, 100 different dimensions, similar to songs expressing combinations of feelings. An off-the-shelf typeface will express things that are close to exactly what you're looking for, but almost never exactly 100%. Commissioning a font gives you exactly the visual identity you're looking for, zero compromises. Additionally, distinctiveness/uniqueness has its own value too -- corporations commission typefaces so no other brand will share the same identity. For a large nation-state, that carries the same value. (Although, unlike a company like Microsoft or IBM, I'm not sure if the US Government can prevent any private company from using it?)
  - JorgeGT 7y ago
    In this case, the most powerful nation-state on Earth established its exact visual identity by forking a font from an Argentinian dude whose last pic on Instagram is of Ernesto "Che" Guevara x)
chrisbrandow 7y ago
What is the advantage of this over Open Sans? Is it less encumbered legally? Or are there other advantages? Or is it simply another alternative, which is also great.
- legitster 7y ago
  The key word is "neutral". The government doesn't set a preference for a specific font or organization.
  - citizenkeen 7y ago
    What is a neutral font?
    - cbhl 7y ago
      If I recall correctly, Open Sans was commissioned by Google.
    - legitster 7y ago
      If they pick a font, even an open source one, it could encourage people to copy them. Or be making some (very minor) statement about open source. By developing their own font, they don't set preference for any organization, group, or business.
      - snazz 7y ago
        They do develop it on GitHub, which I would consider to be a stronger statement than font choice.
        beatgammit 7y ago
        Well, nobody said they had to be consistent...
- sdinsn 7y ago
  Yes, Open Sans is under the Apache License while Public Sans should be under Public Domain (although this is a bit unclear and is being debated in the github issues).
caiob 7y ago
Wish there was a mono version. Seems like the kinda font that would look great on a terminal.
beefhash 7y ago
I've been wondering why all these new fonts tend to have a strong focus on sans serif font (Fira has no serif variant, Source Serif Pro came later than the other Source fonts). Aren't there a lot of situations (namely, lengthy legal documents) where you'd prefer a serif font before you want a sans serif?
- jonfw 7y ago
  If you're just looking for a font for your microsft word or other office document software, you're most likely not going to bother downloading new fonts when Word has plenty of fonts available easily. I would imagine tech geeks and artists are generally the people who are downloading new fonts, and those poeple are probably spending most of their time using sans serif fonts or monospace.
- JdeBP 7y ago
  Not all, I believe. Merriweather is serif. * https://github.com/uswds/uswds-for-designers#fonts https://github.com/uswds/uswds-for-designers#fonts * https://designsystem.digital.gov/components/typography/ https://designsystem.digital.gov/components/typography/ * https://github.com/SorkinType/Merriweather/blob/master/README.md https://github.com/SorkinType/Merriweather/blob/master/READM...
- snide 7y ago
  Primarily because they focus on interfaces, not publishing. Serif is traditionally used for legibility of long text. Sans always wins for actual interface design (at least those with some manner of complexity) because it's much less visually distracting when used in a variety of weights and sizes. Interfaces tend to have much more mixed usage so we usually go with sans. Generally just using the system font is fine for most UI interfaces and the only good reasons to change it are: 1. You have a specific branding style you need to achieve (this is becoming rare) 2. Your interface has pixel perfect user created content where the difference in font to font usage between OSes / Browsers would cause actual breaks in layouts from user to user. I run into the later often, and so we end up picking a neutral style font like this because it's the closest thing to a generic "system font" like Roboto or San Francisco that has a friendlier license. Personally I prefer Inter UI https://rsms.me/inter/ https://rsms.me/inter/
ukulele 7y ago
What if the progression ends up being: 1. Publicly-funded font(s) created 2. Use on govt websites grows 3. Publicly-funded CDN used for said govt site assets 4. Other, non-govt sites use said font(s) 5. Govt becomes asset host for web basics across thousands of non-govt sites This may be another step in CDN lifecycle of startup --> megacorp --> commoditization --> govt service.
- nathan_long 7y ago
  Why would we go beyond step 2? As a taxpayer, I could buy the argument that the govt needs a new font, and that, having made one, it should make said font available for free so taxpayers can get the benefit. I don't see why my taxes should fund a public CDN, though.
  - alvalentini 7y ago
    Why not? It all depends on how important as an infrastructure CDNs will become. I know that in the States you prefer things to be privately held, but it's not too absurd imagining a future where CDNs are an essential and fundamental service to every day life for the vast majority of the population.
  - yellowapple 7y ago
    It's possible (probable, even) that the government would want to use a CDN for static assets (like fonts) for the same reasons that sufficiently-large private orgs would want to use a CDN for static assets. In that case, it's also possible (probable, even) that some particularly-lazily-developed smaller sites would simply point to those same CDNs instead of hosting things themselves (much like how quite a few sites point toward CDN-hosted versions of jQuery and FontAwesome and such). The only remaining step would then be for that taxpayer-funded CDN to cache any and all taxpayer-funded static assets.
flixic 7y ago
Fantastic font. I've long seen Helvetica (literally meaning "Swiss" with one added letter) used in official US forms, communication and the like. If this becomes the "US brand" and replaces Helvetica as a national font, it's a really great choice.
- draugadrotten 7y ago
  Is it just me or is the kerning in "typeface" a bit off? It looks like ty-peface. (Chrome,Mac)
  - bencollier49 7y ago
    Came here to say the same thing. The kerning looks wrong somehow.
floatingatoll 7y ago
Is it legal for the federal government to specify a font license other than “This is released into the public domain”? They automatically give up all copyright upon publication, which ought to exhaust any licensing terms.
- adriantam 7y ago
  IANAL, I believe the whole idea behind GPL is to make sure GPL supersede what you might claim otherwise. So if the federal government can possibly make a derived work into public domain (or crown copyright if UK) instead of GPL, that's a loophole in GPL! (I know this work is not GPL, but similar idea applies)
  - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
    I imagine just the government's code contributions would be public domain, and public domain code should be GPL compatible.
    - yellowapple 7y ago
      Public domain code ain't GPL-compatible though unless it's explicitly released under a "license" that functions as a public domain grant (e.g. CC0, 0-clause BSD, WTFPL, etc., though WTFPL has some legal wording issues IIRC), the reason for this being that not all jurisdictions recognize the concept of "public domain" and thus require explicit license terms.
      - wolfgang42 7y ago
        Wouldn't the PD "license" in this case be US law [1], which specifically prohibits copyright protection for works produced by the government? [1] 17 USC 105: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/105 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/105
      - janc_ 7y ago
        I don't know any jurisdictions that don't recognize the concept of “public domain”, but there are some that define “public domain” differently than it is defined in the US. In the US “public domain” means “without copyright”, while in some other countries it means “without authors rights” (authors rights are a superset of copyright). The problem here is that some authors rights (both in the US & in those countries) are “inalienable”, meaning they can't be given or taken away (although there might be exceptions listed in the law).
cjjuice 7y ago
I am really impressed with 18F and how the federal government has really stepped up their game on the digital/open source front. It does make me wonder though if the usage rights of these projects should be restricted to use by US taxpayers though since that is who is ultimately paying for this work.
- marsRoverDev 7y ago
  You could say the same thing about the UK government's equivalent, which I would argue is somewhat of an influence on 18F (though I'm not an insider). They actively open source their work, this being a great example of it: https://github.com/alphagov https://github.com/alphagov I don't think that 18F and US taxpayers lose out on anything by open sourcing this. It builds a lot of good will and they are probably using systems that have been contributed to by others as well.
  - mathieuh 7y ago
    It goes further than just things developed by GDS themselves, all government projects for which GDS is responsible (i.e. they conduct audits and assessments at alpha, beta and live) are also open source. Here's one I worked on: https://github.com/dvsa/mot https://github.com/dvsa/mot Things generally don't have to be open source until you get to your beta assessment, as the alpha assessment is really just checking that you have a clear plan for getting to beta and they agree with your approach, so you don't fail for not being open source at this stage. The project I'm working on currently (an app to let companies wishing to perform road works see all road works being performed across the country, hopefully preventing things like two different companies digging up and resurfacing the road in a short space of time, etc.) is about to hit beta so will be open-sourced shortly
  - DanBC 7y ago
    I like some of the NHS Digital work too. They have some interesting blogs, eg this: https://digital.nhs.uk/blog/transformation-blog/2019/icons-avoid-temptation-and-start-with-user-needs https://digital.nhs.uk/blog/transformation-blog/2019/icons-a...
legitster 7y ago
I can only imagine the hours of meetings and deliberation that went into developing a one-size-fits-all, cross agency font. That meets all sorts of weird political and accessibility guidelines. Still, it only has to be done once! I'm a huge fan of what the USWDS has done so far. I love the model of an internal tech resource for the government.
boterock 7y ago
It is sad that any nice font looks like crap with Windows font rendering.
- ComputerGuru 7y ago
  Windows does not have crap font rendering, Windows has advanced hinting support that varies by typeface and is infinitely customizable. Other operating systems apply a global hinting that typically discards the font designer's own preferences for how the font should look (especially at smaller scales). Fonts without that manual hinting look like crap on Windows because Windows does not force through its own rendering/hinting/kerning overrides. And all that is probably besides the point: if you're referring to how the fonts are rendered within a webpage, all the major browsers use their own custom rendering via one (finely tuned) set of parameters and interfaces for macOS/Linux/etc and another (rudimentary) for Windows. And most webfonts do not include any sort of hinting instructions in the payload, so even if the original typeface had manual hinting and would render well on a proper type engine normally, when served over the web even to a browser doing things right it'll still appear horrible. In case you didn't know, Microsoft is really big on typography, and has commissioned a number of incredibly beautiful typefaces that render perfectly under Windows (and other operating systems).
  - yellowapple 7y ago
    I don't think I've seen a single typeface that actually looks good on Windows 8 or later, though. Even Linux does a better job (with or without subpixel rendering). Maybe I just haven't viewed enough fonts on recent Windows versions to have encountered the better examples, though; are there any fonts (to your knowledge) that do look especially good on Windows (and/or better than they do on macOS or a FreeType-using Unix-like OS)?
    - GoblinSlayer 7y ago
      https://abload.de/img/tmpxwk2y.png https://abload.de/img/tmpxwk2y.png this is Verdana on Windows.
  - 7y ago
optymizer 7y ago
The older I get, the more skeptical I become. Kudos to the author for releasing their project, it looks like a lot of effort went into it, so I hate to sound overly negative, but I just can't help wonder if there is a practical reason for the US government to develop its own font? Is Sans Serif Fonts the department where the US government can really make a difference, or is this just a designer who happened to get a job with the US government and designed a font because they always wanted to and now they got the opportunity?
- Invictus0 7y ago
  Why bother having an architect of the Capitol, then? Why bother building government buildings out of stone when wood is cheaper? Appearances matter: would you want to do your taxes with Comic Sans?
  - optymizer 7y ago
    The choice was never between Comic Sans or New Government Font. There are a plethora of established sans serif typefaces available under various licenses, as seen on this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sans_serif_typefaces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sans_serif_typefaces These have existed well before someone said "let's create Public Sans!". It would be nice to know what the reasoning was. The Github page only goes into the details of how Public Sans is different from Libre Franklin.
    - yborg 7y ago
      As a taxpayer I personally am pleased that this is at least one place the government isn't subsidizing some corporation for private gain at my expense. Even if a foundry licensed the font to the government for free, it would be free advertising for that entity. This is one area where I think it makes excellent sense for the government to have done something on its own. The surprise is that it actually looks decent.
    - tptacek 7y ago
      Many (most?) of those typefaces are commercially licensed, and can't serve as a universal "default" for typography across all the USG's web properties. Additionally: almost none of them are in OS/browser font stacks, so using them would incur logistical problems in addition to licensing.
_emacsomancer_ 7y ago
I appreciate the tailed 'l'.
- UI_at_80x24 7y ago
  Agreed.
- phlakaton 7y ago
  Did you say the tailed I? ;-)
  - daliusd 7y ago
    I think he said tailed "|".
taffer 7y ago
I think this is really beautiful.
- canada_dry 7y ago
  > I think this is really beautiful. Different strokes (literally). I quite dislike it. In my mind this font lacks symmetry and consistency needed to be easily readable. Especially how the curved base appears to drop below the flat base! It hurts my eyes.
  - mmmrk 7y ago
    You mean how e.g. the base of "o" drops below the base of "r"? That's standard optical compensation because if you make them level, the curved base seems to sit higher than the flat base. The amount of compensation needed differs depending on point size.
UI_at_80x24 7y ago
Looks decent, but "I" "O" and "0" could be improved.
- delinka 7y ago
  Improved for what use case? This is not a font I'd expect anyone to write code in (to each his own, however.) Context will determine how a particular character is read.
  - dredmorbius 7y ago
    Governments frequently publish references in which accurate literal transcription is necessary; law, regulation, and (legal) code references, identifiers, and the like. 1lO05S and other commonly-confused characters are best clearly distinguished.
  - UI_at_80x24 7y ago
    If you are reading conversational english, you are correct that 99% of the time I/O/0/5/S/etc. should be easily apparent. But if this is to be the de facto font used by all government agencies then you get cases where part numbers, serial numbers, legal-case numbers, scientific studies, anything/everything at NASA. And then there is the military. Removing ambiguity and uncertainty should be the point.
acd 7y ago
Nice font!
yellowapple 7y ago
Just installed it as my system UI font under Linux (previously I was using B612, and before that CMU Sans). Took me by surprise how readable it is even at small sizes. I just wish there was a monospaced variant/equivalent so I can run it in my terminal/Emacs windows.
SamWhited 7y ago
AUR package for easy install on Arch: https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/ttf-public-sans/ https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/ttf-public-sans/
cpeterso 7y ago
Interesting take: Does Public Sans' OFL-1.1 license violate the Establishment Clause? https://github.com/uswds/public-sans/issues/31 https://github.com/uswds/public-sans/issues/31
- sdinsn 7y ago
  It definitely doesn't. His argument kinda relies on the idea that the government interacting with a religious organization in any manner is a violation. This is just not the case
- howard941 7y ago
  Probably not as it fails to move the needle on any of the Lemon test prongs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_v._Kurtzman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_v._Kurtzman
zestyping 7y ago
Why does the "j" have a larger dot than the "i"? Is there any reason for this? It just looks like an error to me.
- zestyping 7y ago
  Filed, and got a response right away! https://github.com/uswds/uswds/issues/3024 https://github.com/uswds/uswds/issues/3024
  - alexpetralia 7y ago
    This is amazing. What is this - a startup?!
    - ColossalSquid32 7y ago
      U.S. gov't! https://designsystem.digital.gov/ https://designsystem.digital.gov/ article: https://digital.gov/2019/04/08/introducing-uswds-2/ https://digital.gov/2019/04/08/introducing-uswds-2/
      - acl777 7y ago
        so a start up, on series Z and going... :-)
  - gnicholas 7y ago
    That's really cool. OTOH, how did this not get noticed before now? The letters are literally right next to each other in the alphabet.
  - bhasi 7y ago
    Very cool!
jancsika 7y ago
Before I submit a bug report-- is there a good reason that the zero isn't dotted in this font? For example, executive order numbers have both "O" and "0" appearing in them. But I'm sure there are stronger examples in various gov't depts. where those characters can occur in sequence and create errors. Not to mention any code snippets that already appear in government web sites. I suppose the extra ink could be a concern, but we should be moving away from paper printouts anyway. And as we do that, extinguishing a small dot in this great nation's zeros would be an important symbolic first step in combating climate change.
- ricardobeat 7y ago
  Usually these are available as “alternates”, can be enabled in system text dialog on MacOS, also through css. (Not on desktop right now so can’t check).
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    I checked and it didn't seem to work :(
  - jancsika 7y ago
    It appears CSS only has an alternate for slashed zero.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  I'm not sure the zero should be dotted/slashed by default, but it doesn't look like the font has a variant for it either…
  - mortenjorck 7y ago
    I wouldn’t put it in the standard numerals, but it could work in the lining/tabular figures. If nothing else, this would be a good place to use an OpenType stylistic set: https://typofonderie.com/font-support/opentype-features/ https://typofonderie.com/font-support/opentype-features/
- 7y ago
harshreality 7y ago
Sans is overused. Please do not use (or carefully consider before using) sans fonts for long blocks of text you expect people to read.[1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soYKFWqVVzg#t=34m53s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soYKFWqVVzg#t=34m53s "I disagree, I like sans [for long prose] better" comments miss the point; this is not an anecdata competition, it's about how many people prefer each one (and also it would be worth considering how strongly they hold that preference, since mildly pissing off even a slight majority of your readers/customers is better than really pissing off a smaller percentage). Even if you're skeptical of the studies Mayer looked at, Google (literata) and Amazon (bookerly) seem to be in the serif camp. Do you think Amazon made a mistake, too?
- JshWright 7y ago
  That's a pretty disgusting video description...
  - cududa 7y ago
    The fact that you’re getting downvoted ... god the people in this industry..
- sdinsn 7y ago
  I personally disagree. I find it easier to read sans fonts.
- quickthrower2 7y ago
  Funny enough Medium uses a serif font, and I enjoy reading it more, and it inspired me to do the same on my site. But I use Georgia so I don't need any fancy web fonts or wat not.
- GoblinSlayer 7y ago
  Web sites should really use the user's preference and not override with either serif or sans serif (size too). HTML has a presentation freedom for a reason.
OliverJones 7y ago
Interesting that this web site uses a Let's Encrypt certificate. I suppose it saves the maintainers from being gouged by a beltway bandit charging thousands to monitor and then update an ordinary CA-issued certificate.
- bmogilefsky 7y ago
  (I work for 18F but don't officially represent it here.) The site is hosted via Federalist (https://federalist.18f.gov/ https://federalist.18f.gov/) a SaaS which runs on top of sibling Platform as a Service cloud.gov (https://cloud.gov https://cloud.gov), which is based on Cloud Foundry. (Think of cloud.gov as "government-compliant and -operated Heroku" and you're not too far off.) One of the benefits of using cloud.gov is that it automatically brokers and renews certs from Let's Encrypt... Math is math, and there's no sense spending taxpayer money where we don't have to! Here's the page about it, including a link to the broker source at the bottom: https://cloud.gov/docs/services/cdn-route/ https://cloud.gov/docs/services/cdn-route/ Both are operated by 18F (https://18f.gsa.gov https://18f.gsa.gov)... We're all feds! If anyone is interested in joining us check out https://18f.gsa.gov/join/ https://18f.gsa.gov/join/
  - chasenyc 7y ago
    I'm very curious your thoughts about the NTE clause of employment stating you can only work there a maximum of four years. And you are initially hired for a set two year term.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
stuaxo 7y ago
You know that something that says it's neutral is always anything but. Very readable, and it screams "America" which makes sense given who made it.
- jpatokal 7y ago
  Does it? To my admittedly untutored eye the first impression is Helvetica aka Switzerland, although it's not quite as stripped down: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvetica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvetica This, on the other hand, screams America: https://www.dafont.com/american-captain.font https://www.dafont.com/american-captain.font
SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
Nice lowercase L... first thing I look for in a font! |Il nonsense is unacceptable, but I have to deal with it all the time.
pcwalton 7y ago
Good choice to base this on Franklin Gothic. Given that IRS tax forms already use it, it's effectively been part of the US government's "brand identity" for a long time.
rdsubhas 7y ago
https://github.com/google/fonts/issues/1923 https://github.com/google/fonts/issues/1923
jarvuschris 7y ago
Check out the Digital Services Act, a current bill going through congress to throw some gas on efforts like this: https://www.wired.com/story/kamala-harris-digital-services-act-2019/ https://www.wired.com/story/kamala-harris-digital-services-a...
TheRealPomax 7y ago
No FVAR version mentioned on the website? (If there isn't one: it's rather entirely worth converting your different masters into a single FVAR master instead)
lotyrin 7y ago
Hinting is all jacked up in Chrome on OSX.
canada_dry 7y ago
I dislike it! Especially how the curved base appears to drop below the flat base! In my mind this font lacks symmetry and consistency needed to be easily readable. It hurts my eyes.
k_sze 7y ago
What do “strong” and “neutral” mean in this context?
- lbotos 7y ago
  Inspired by Helvetica. I'm not being facetious. For example, this is a "strong" face, but it's not "neutral". https://eyeondesign.aiga.org/this-brutalist-inspired-stencil-font-looks-just-as-good-on-a-wall-as-it-does-a-book-cover/ https://eyeondesign.aiga.org/this-brutalist-inspired-stencil... Also strong, and not neutral. https://eyeondesign.aiga.org/use-this-brick-of-a-typeface-when-you-need-to-make-a-point/ https://eyeondesign.aiga.org/use-this-brick-of-a-typeface-wh...
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daveheq 7y ago
Arial's always looked fine to me... I don't know why this wheel needs to keep being reinvented.
- danso 7y ago
  Aesthetics and flaws aside, Arial is a proprietary font.

1310 points by thinkalone 7y ago

The github page has more info https://github.com/uswds/public-sans/blob/master/README.md#design-principles https://github.com/uswds/public-sans/blob/master/README.md#d...

2bitencryption 7y ago

This is so interesting. These modern sites clash really hard with my mental visual of "Government technology." And it led me to this, which is maybe even more interesting: https://federalist.18f.gov/ https://federalist.18f.gov/

TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
It's not government if it's not printed in IBM Courier!
- NikolaNovak 7y ago
  Erm, IBM Plex, of course... ;-) https://github.com/IBM/plex https://github.com/IBM/plex
timdiggerm 7y ago
If only the Forest Service sites could use their templates
- britta 7y ago
  The Forest Service worked with 18F on this Open Forest project to enable people to buy Christmas tree permits online, which uses United States Web Design System components: https://openforest.fs.usda.gov/christmas-trees/forests https://openforest.fs.usda.gov/christmas-trees/forests You can learn more about that project here, including the open source code: https://18f.gsa.gov/what-we-deliver/forest-service/ https://18f.gsa.gov/what-we-deliver/forest-service/ - and a few blog posts about it: https://18f.gsa.gov/tags/forest-service/ https://18f.gsa.gov/tags/forest-service/ Both that Forest Service project and Federalist run on cloud.gov, which is a Platform as a Service operated by 18F. (I work for 18F but don't officially represent it here.)
  - dpcx 7y ago
    https://openforest.fs.usda.gov/christmas-trees/forests https://openforest.fs.usda.gov/christmas-trees/forests has a pretty heavy dependency on Javascript (read: there's no fallback to anything non-javascript, so I get a white page). It feels like that goes against some of the things that 18F is about.
    - Someone1234 7y ago
      Pages don't need a fallback to non-Javascript in 2019. Accessibility technologies now fully support a JS enabled web, with accessibility standards following suit. That leaves only those who have voluntarily disabled JavaScript (<1% of users), but fortunately those users are typically aware of how to resolve the issue of their own creation. I've worked on public facing government websites (not 18F). We simply don't support this edge case, and our legal department supports our legal right to do so (in particular in relation to ADA requirements).
      - dpcx 7y ago
        Thank you for the response. I wasn't trying to suggest that it was a requirement, simply that it seemed odd that there would be no fallback whatsoever. I guess I'm behind the times.
        logfromblammo 7y ago
        No, you're not. The times are just circling back around to form over function again. Since we keep revisiting this, you might say that you're ahead of the times.
      - saagarjha 7y ago
        > Pages don't need a fallback to non-Javascript in 2019. Strongly disagree. Having your page completely break instead of degrading gracefully puts up a barrier to those who cannot run JavaScript (for example, users with older, weaker computers).
archgoon 7y ago
The USDS (US Digital Service) was born in the fire of the healthcare.gov fiasco, and several industry veterans from Google stepped in to fix the infrastructure issues they saw within the US Government. Currently, @Matt_Cutts is leading the org. I can only think that your comment brings a smile to his face.
- amaccuish 7y ago
  Also inspired by the UK version: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Digital_Service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Digital_Service
- noir_lord 7y ago
  IIRC the USDS is also in part based on GDS[1] who did (and continue to do) a really good job at dragging parts of the government kicking and screaming into the future. https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/government-digital-service https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/government-digit...
- president 7y ago
  Does anyone know what it's like working for the USDS? Curious what it's like to work for the Government but under the leadership of presumably a bunch of ex-Googlers.
  - SamWhited 7y ago
    I really wanted to work for the USDS for a while. I'd still like to, but the invasiveness of an SF-86 which is required for some reason even if you don't need a security clearance, drug testing (I'd pass, but I'm not okay with requiring one anyways), and the fact that I'd have to move to D.C. make the sacrifice a big thing to weigh against the public good you'd be able to do. It's a tough call.
    - eddietejeda 7y ago
      USDS's requirement to be in DC is a tough ask, but necessary given the work they do. At 18F, we travel to DC a couple of times a year, but we are mostly remote. There are significant hubs in SF, NYC, DC, and CHI, but the remote culture is the most successful I've seen.
saagarjha 7y ago
18F is great and I hope they end up "fixing" all of the government's websites.
eddietejeda 7y ago
Yup. I run Federalist at 18F and absolutely love the work, the challenge and colleagues. We do everything in the open, so feel free to follow our work here: https://github.com/18F/federalist https://github.com/18F/federalist We also implement the USWDS, which you can follow here: https://github.com/18F/federalist-uswds-jekyll https://github.com/18F/federalist-uswds-jekyll Let me know if you have any questions!
- milquetoastaf 7y ago
  Are y'all hiring :D
- siavosh 7y ago
  Curious to hear if your group is still well supported budget wise?
  - eddietejeda 7y ago
    Although we are part of the government, we operate as a business unit that must pay for itself to exist. To do this, we have to charge other agencies for our services. My group is "cost-recoverable," meaning, that we are longer losing money and can reinvest back into the product. You will notice our Github activity picked up recently and even more significant changes are coming soon. So, I'd say we are in the best shape we've ever been.
    - bredren 7y ago
      Can you comment on what organizations are your biggest customers? Are you concerned about austerity measures / cutbacks affecting customer budgets?
      - freehunter 7y ago
        >Are you concerned about austerity measures / cutbacks affecting customer budgets? Isn't every business or organization concerned about various economic forces affecting their customer budgets?
karmelapple 7y ago
I’ve found Boston’s city websites [1] to have a nice user experience and fantastic branding that ties in not just all the city’s web properties, but also some official postal mail flyers from the city, printed placards and signage at City Hall, and more. I haven’t noticed this strong of a branding in other cities I’ve lived, but would love to see examples of others. Boston even maintains its code on github! [2] Their digital department also has a roadmap of what their initiatives are, and it’s communicated in what I think is such an easily digestible manner [3] Bravo to their digital team! [1] https://www.boston.gov/ https://www.boston.gov/ [2] https://github.com/CityOfBoston https://github.com/CityOfBoston [3] https://www.boston.gov/departments/digital-team/digital-team-roadmap https://www.boston.gov/departments/digital-team/digital-team...
andrewshadura 7y ago
Have you seen gov.uk?
- pastor_elm 7y ago
  no

ocdtrekkie 7y ago

The question neither this page nor the GitHub answers is... why? I understand a lot of corporations did their own fonts to escape font licensing. Is there fonts the government is currently licensing and trying to get out from under? Where will I see this font? Is there a reason other open source fonts weren't already adequate?

saagarjha 7y ago
I feel like this might be a nice way to brand a website as an "official government website".
legitster 7y ago
It undercuts vendors. I could totally see a local government org being put through the ringer for every bit and bob of a website. If there is already an established font choice, that's one less widget they are being charged for.
crazygringo 7y ago
A typeface is a key part of an organization's visual identity. A typeface expresses many things, you can imagine it as different sliders along, say, 100 different dimensions, similar to songs expressing combinations of feelings. An off-the-shelf typeface will express things that are close to exactly what you're looking for, but almost never exactly 100%. Commissioning a font gives you exactly the visual identity you're looking for, zero compromises. Additionally, distinctiveness/uniqueness has its own value too -- corporations commission typefaces so no other brand will share the same identity. For a large nation-state, that carries the same value. (Although, unlike a company like Microsoft or IBM, I'm not sure if the US Government can prevent any private company from using it?)
- JorgeGT 7y ago
  In this case, the most powerful nation-state on Earth established its exact visual identity by forking a font from an Argentinian dude whose last pic on Instagram is of Ernesto "Che" Guevara x)

chrisbrandow 7y ago

What is the advantage of this over Open Sans? Is it less encumbered legally? Or are there other advantages? Or is it simply another alternative, which is also great.

legitster 7y ago
The key word is "neutral". The government doesn't set a preference for a specific font or organization.
- citizenkeen 7y ago
  What is a neutral font?
  - cbhl 7y ago
    If I recall correctly, Open Sans was commissioned by Google.
  - legitster 7y ago
    If they pick a font, even an open source one, it could encourage people to copy them. Or be making some (very minor) statement about open source. By developing their own font, they don't set preference for any organization, group, or business.
    - snazz 7y ago
      They do develop it on GitHub, which I would consider to be a stronger statement than font choice.
      - beatgammit 7y ago
        Well, nobody said they had to be consistent...
sdinsn 7y ago
Yes, Open Sans is under the Apache License while Public Sans should be under Public Domain (although this is a bit unclear and is being debated in the github issues).

caiob 7y ago

Wish there was a mono version. Seems like the kinda font that would look great on a terminal.

beefhash 7y ago

I've been wondering why all these new fonts tend to have a strong focus on sans serif font (Fira has no serif variant, Source Serif Pro came later than the other Source fonts). Aren't there a lot of situations (namely, lengthy legal documents) where you'd prefer a serif font before you want a sans serif?

jonfw 7y ago
If you're just looking for a font for your microsft word or other office document software, you're most likely not going to bother downloading new fonts when Word has plenty of fonts available easily. I would imagine tech geeks and artists are generally the people who are downloading new fonts, and those poeple are probably spending most of their time using sans serif fonts or monospace.
JdeBP 7y ago
Not all, I believe. Merriweather is serif. * https://github.com/uswds/uswds-for-designers#fonts https://github.com/uswds/uswds-for-designers#fonts * https://designsystem.digital.gov/components/typography/ https://designsystem.digital.gov/components/typography/ * https://github.com/SorkinType/Merriweather/blob/master/README.md https://github.com/SorkinType/Merriweather/blob/master/READM...
snide 7y ago
Primarily because they focus on interfaces, not publishing. Serif is traditionally used for legibility of long text. Sans always wins for actual interface design (at least those with some manner of complexity) because it's much less visually distracting when used in a variety of weights and sizes. Interfaces tend to have much more mixed usage so we usually go with sans. Generally just using the system font is fine for most UI interfaces and the only good reasons to change it are: 1. You have a specific branding style you need to achieve (this is becoming rare) 2. Your interface has pixel perfect user created content where the difference in font to font usage between OSes / Browsers would cause actual breaks in layouts from user to user. I run into the later often, and so we end up picking a neutral style font like this because it's the closest thing to a generic "system font" like Roboto or San Francisco that has a friendlier license. Personally I prefer Inter UI https://rsms.me/inter/ https://rsms.me/inter/

ukulele 7y ago

What if the progression ends up being: 1. Publicly-funded font(s) created 2. Use on govt websites grows 3. Publicly-funded CDN used for said govt site assets 4. Other, non-govt sites use said font(s) 5. Govt becomes asset host for web basics across thousands of non-govt sites This may be another step in CDN lifecycle of startup --> megacorp --> commoditization --> govt service.

nathan_long 7y ago
Why would we go beyond step 2? As a taxpayer, I could buy the argument that the govt needs a new font, and that, having made one, it should make said font available for free so taxpayers can get the benefit. I don't see why my taxes should fund a public CDN, though.
- alvalentini 7y ago
  Why not? It all depends on how important as an infrastructure CDNs will become. I know that in the States you prefer things to be privately held, but it's not too absurd imagining a future where CDNs are an essential and fundamental service to every day life for the vast majority of the population.
- yellowapple 7y ago
  It's possible (probable, even) that the government would want to use a CDN for static assets (like fonts) for the same reasons that sufficiently-large private orgs would want to use a CDN for static assets. In that case, it's also possible (probable, even) that some particularly-lazily-developed smaller sites would simply point to those same CDNs instead of hosting things themselves (much like how quite a few sites point toward CDN-hosted versions of jQuery and FontAwesome and such). The only remaining step would then be for that taxpayer-funded CDN to cache any and all taxpayer-funded static assets.

flixic 7y ago

Fantastic font. I've long seen Helvetica (literally meaning "Swiss" with one added letter) used in official US forms, communication and the like. If this becomes the "US brand" and replaces Helvetica as a national font, it's a really great choice.

draugadrotten 7y ago
Is it just me or is the kerning in "typeface" a bit off? It looks like ty-peface. (Chrome,Mac)
- bencollier49 7y ago
  Came here to say the same thing. The kerning looks wrong somehow.

floatingatoll 7y ago

Is it legal for the federal government to specify a font license other than “This is released into the public domain”? They automatically give up all copyright upon publication, which ought to exhaust any licensing terms.

adriantam 7y ago
IANAL, I believe the whole idea behind GPL is to make sure GPL supersede what you might claim otherwise. So if the federal government can possibly make a derived work into public domain (or crown copyright if UK) instead of GPL, that's a loophole in GPL! (I know this work is not GPL, but similar idea applies)
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  I imagine just the government's code contributions would be public domain, and public domain code should be GPL compatible.
  - yellowapple 7y ago
    Public domain code ain't GPL-compatible though unless it's explicitly released under a "license" that functions as a public domain grant (e.g. CC0, 0-clause BSD, WTFPL, etc., though WTFPL has some legal wording issues IIRC), the reason for this being that not all jurisdictions recognize the concept of "public domain" and thus require explicit license terms.
    - wolfgang42 7y ago
      Wouldn't the PD "license" in this case be US law [1], which specifically prohibits copyright protection for works produced by the government? [1] 17 USC 105: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/105 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/105
    - janc_ 7y ago
      I don't know any jurisdictions that don't recognize the concept of “public domain”, but there are some that define “public domain” differently than it is defined in the US. In the US “public domain” means “without copyright”, while in some other countries it means “without authors rights” (authors rights are a superset of copyright). The problem here is that some authors rights (both in the US & in those countries) are “inalienable”, meaning they can't be given or taken away (although there might be exceptions listed in the law).

cjjuice 7y ago

I am really impressed with 18F and how the federal government has really stepped up their game on the digital/open source front. It does make me wonder though if the usage rights of these projects should be restricted to use by US taxpayers though since that is who is ultimately paying for this work.

marsRoverDev 7y ago
You could say the same thing about the UK government's equivalent, which I would argue is somewhat of an influence on 18F (though I'm not an insider). They actively open source their work, this being a great example of it: https://github.com/alphagov https://github.com/alphagov I don't think that 18F and US taxpayers lose out on anything by open sourcing this. It builds a lot of good will and they are probably using systems that have been contributed to by others as well.
- mathieuh 7y ago
  It goes further than just things developed by GDS themselves, all government projects for which GDS is responsible (i.e. they conduct audits and assessments at alpha, beta and live) are also open source. Here's one I worked on: https://github.com/dvsa/mot https://github.com/dvsa/mot Things generally don't have to be open source until you get to your beta assessment, as the alpha assessment is really just checking that you have a clear plan for getting to beta and they agree with your approach, so you don't fail for not being open source at this stage. The project I'm working on currently (an app to let companies wishing to perform road works see all road works being performed across the country, hopefully preventing things like two different companies digging up and resurfacing the road in a short space of time, etc.) is about to hit beta so will be open-sourced shortly
- DanBC 7y ago
  I like some of the NHS Digital work too. They have some interesting blogs, eg this: https://digital.nhs.uk/blog/transformation-blog/2019/icons-avoid-temptation-and-start-with-user-needs https://digital.nhs.uk/blog/transformation-blog/2019/icons-a...

legitster 7y ago

I can only imagine the hours of meetings and deliberation that went into developing a one-size-fits-all, cross agency font. That meets all sorts of weird political and accessibility guidelines. Still, it only has to be done once! I'm a huge fan of what the USWDS has done so far. I love the model of an internal tech resource for the government.

boterock 7y ago

It is sad that any nice font looks like crap with Windows font rendering.

ComputerGuru 7y ago
Windows does not have crap font rendering, Windows has advanced hinting support that varies by typeface and is infinitely customizable. Other operating systems apply a global hinting that typically discards the font designer's own preferences for how the font should look (especially at smaller scales). Fonts without that manual hinting look like crap on Windows because Windows does not force through its own rendering/hinting/kerning overrides. And all that is probably besides the point: if you're referring to how the fonts are rendered within a webpage, all the major browsers use their own custom rendering via one (finely tuned) set of parameters and interfaces for macOS/Linux/etc and another (rudimentary) for Windows. And most webfonts do not include any sort of hinting instructions in the payload, so even if the original typeface had manual hinting and would render well on a proper type engine normally, when served over the web even to a browser doing things right it'll still appear horrible. In case you didn't know, Microsoft is really big on typography, and has commissioned a number of incredibly beautiful typefaces that render perfectly under Windows (and other operating systems).
- yellowapple 7y ago
  I don't think I've seen a single typeface that actually looks good on Windows 8 or later, though. Even Linux does a better job (with or without subpixel rendering). Maybe I just haven't viewed enough fonts on recent Windows versions to have encountered the better examples, though; are there any fonts (to your knowledge) that do look especially good on Windows (and/or better than they do on macOS or a FreeType-using Unix-like OS)?
  - GoblinSlayer 7y ago
    https://abload.de/img/tmpxwk2y.png https://abload.de/img/tmpxwk2y.png this is Verdana on Windows.
- 7y ago

optymizer 7y ago

The older I get, the more skeptical I become. Kudos to the author for releasing their project, it looks like a lot of effort went into it, so I hate to sound overly negative, but I just can't help wonder if there is a practical reason for the US government to develop its own font? Is Sans Serif Fonts the department where the US government can really make a difference, or is this just a designer who happened to get a job with the US government and designed a font because they always wanted to and now they got the opportunity?

Invictus0 7y ago
Why bother having an architect of the Capitol, then? Why bother building government buildings out of stone when wood is cheaper? Appearances matter: would you want to do your taxes with Comic Sans?
- optymizer 7y ago
  The choice was never between Comic Sans or New Government Font. There are a plethora of established sans serif typefaces available under various licenses, as seen on this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sans_serif_typefaces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sans_serif_typefaces These have existed well before someone said "let's create Public Sans!". It would be nice to know what the reasoning was. The Github page only goes into the details of how Public Sans is different from Libre Franklin.
  - yborg 7y ago
    As a taxpayer I personally am pleased that this is at least one place the government isn't subsidizing some corporation for private gain at my expense. Even if a foundry licensed the font to the government for free, it would be free advertising for that entity. This is one area where I think it makes excellent sense for the government to have done something on its own. The surprise is that it actually looks decent.
  - tptacek 7y ago
    Many (most?) of those typefaces are commercially licensed, and can't serve as a universal "default" for typography across all the USG's web properties. Additionally: almost none of them are in OS/browser font stacks, so using them would incur logistical problems in addition to licensing.

_emacsomancer_ 7y ago

I appreciate the tailed 'l'.

UI_at_80x24 7y ago
Agreed.
phlakaton 7y ago
Did you say the tailed I? ;-)
- daliusd 7y ago
  I think he said tailed "|".

taffer 7y ago

I think this is really beautiful.

canada_dry 7y ago
> I think this is really beautiful. Different strokes (literally). I quite dislike it. In my mind this font lacks symmetry and consistency needed to be easily readable. Especially how the curved base appears to drop below the flat base! It hurts my eyes.
- mmmrk 7y ago
  You mean how e.g. the base of "o" drops below the base of "r"? That's standard optical compensation because if you make them level, the curved base seems to sit higher than the flat base. The amount of compensation needed differs depending on point size.

UI_at_80x24 7y ago

Looks decent, but "I" "O" and "0" could be improved.

delinka 7y ago
Improved for what use case? This is not a font I'd expect anyone to write code in (to each his own, however.) Context will determine how a particular character is read.
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  Governments frequently publish references in which accurate literal transcription is necessary; law, regulation, and (legal) code references, identifiers, and the like. 1lO05S and other commonly-confused characters are best clearly distinguished.
- UI_at_80x24 7y ago
  If you are reading conversational english, you are correct that 99% of the time I/O/0/5/S/etc. should be easily apparent. But if this is to be the de facto font used by all government agencies then you get cases where part numbers, serial numbers, legal-case numbers, scientific studies, anything/everything at NASA. And then there is the military. Removing ambiguity and uncertainty should be the point.

acd 7y ago

Nice font!

yellowapple 7y ago

Just installed it as my system UI font under Linux (previously I was using B612, and before that CMU Sans). Took me by surprise how readable it is even at small sizes. I just wish there was a monospaced variant/equivalent so I can run it in my terminal/Emacs windows.

SamWhited 7y ago

AUR package for easy install on Arch: https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/ttf-public-sans/ https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/ttf-public-sans/

cpeterso 7y ago

Interesting take: Does Public Sans' OFL-1.1 license violate the Establishment Clause? https://github.com/uswds/public-sans/issues/31 https://github.com/uswds/public-sans/issues/31

sdinsn 7y ago
It definitely doesn't. His argument kinda relies on the idea that the government interacting with a religious organization in any manner is a violation. This is just not the case
howard941 7y ago
Probably not as it fails to move the needle on any of the Lemon test prongs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_v._Kurtzman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_v._Kurtzman

zestyping 7y ago

Why does the "j" have a larger dot than the "i"? Is there any reason for this? It just looks like an error to me.

zestyping 7y ago
Filed, and got a response right away! https://github.com/uswds/uswds/issues/3024 https://github.com/uswds/uswds/issues/3024
- alexpetralia 7y ago
  This is amazing. What is this - a startup?!
  - ColossalSquid32 7y ago
    U.S. gov't! https://designsystem.digital.gov/ https://designsystem.digital.gov/ article: https://digital.gov/2019/04/08/introducing-uswds-2/ https://digital.gov/2019/04/08/introducing-uswds-2/
    - acl777 7y ago
      so a start up, on series Z and going... :-)
- gnicholas 7y ago
  That's really cool. OTOH, how did this not get noticed before now? The letters are literally right next to each other in the alphabet.
- bhasi 7y ago
  Very cool!

jancsika 7y ago

Before I submit a bug report-- is there a good reason that the zero isn't dotted in this font? For example, executive order numbers have both "O" and "0" appearing in them. But I'm sure there are stronger examples in various gov't depts. where those characters can occur in sequence and create errors. Not to mention any code snippets that already appear in government web sites. I suppose the extra ink could be a concern, but we should be moving away from paper printouts anyway. And as we do that, extinguishing a small dot in this great nation's zeros would be an important symbolic first step in combating climate change.

ricardobeat 7y ago
Usually these are available as “alternates”, can be enabled in system text dialog on MacOS, also through css. (Not on desktop right now so can’t check).
- saagarjha 7y ago
  I checked and it didn't seem to work :(
- jancsika 7y ago
  It appears CSS only has an alternate for slashed zero.
saagarjha 7y ago
I'm not sure the zero should be dotted/slashed by default, but it doesn't look like the font has a variant for it either…
- mortenjorck 7y ago
  I wouldn’t put it in the standard numerals, but it could work in the lining/tabular figures. If nothing else, this would be a good place to use an OpenType stylistic set: https://typofonderie.com/font-support/opentype-features/ https://typofonderie.com/font-support/opentype-features/
7y ago

harshreality 7y ago

Sans is overused. Please do not use (or carefully consider before using) sans fonts for long blocks of text you expect people to read.[1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soYKFWqVVzg#t=34m53s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soYKFWqVVzg#t=34m53s "I disagree, I like sans [for long prose] better" comments miss the point; this is not an anecdata competition, it's about how many people prefer each one (and also it would be worth considering how strongly they hold that preference, since mildly pissing off even a slight majority of your readers/customers is better than really pissing off a smaller percentage). Even if you're skeptical of the studies Mayer looked at, Google (literata) and Amazon (bookerly) seem to be in the serif camp. Do you think Amazon made a mistake, too?

JshWright 7y ago
That's a pretty disgusting video description...
- cududa 7y ago
  The fact that you’re getting downvoted ... god the people in this industry..
sdinsn 7y ago
I personally disagree. I find it easier to read sans fonts.
quickthrower2 7y ago
Funny enough Medium uses a serif font, and I enjoy reading it more, and it inspired me to do the same on my site. But I use Georgia so I don't need any fancy web fonts or wat not.
GoblinSlayer 7y ago
Web sites should really use the user's preference and not override with either serif or sans serif (size too). HTML has a presentation freedom for a reason.

OliverJones 7y ago

Interesting that this web site uses a Let's Encrypt certificate. I suppose it saves the maintainers from being gouged by a beltway bandit charging thousands to monitor and then update an ordinary CA-issued certificate.

bmogilefsky 7y ago
(I work for 18F but don't officially represent it here.) The site is hosted via Federalist (https://federalist.18f.gov/ https://federalist.18f.gov/) a SaaS which runs on top of sibling Platform as a Service cloud.gov (https://cloud.gov https://cloud.gov), which is based on Cloud Foundry. (Think of cloud.gov as "government-compliant and -operated Heroku" and you're not too far off.) One of the benefits of using cloud.gov is that it automatically brokers and renews certs from Let's Encrypt... Math is math, and there's no sense spending taxpayer money where we don't have to! Here's the page about it, including a link to the broker source at the bottom: https://cloud.gov/docs/services/cdn-route/ https://cloud.gov/docs/services/cdn-route/ Both are operated by 18F (https://18f.gsa.gov https://18f.gsa.gov)... We're all feds! If anyone is interested in joining us check out https://18f.gsa.gov/join/ https://18f.gsa.gov/join/
- chasenyc 7y ago
  I'm very curious your thoughts about the NTE clause of employment stating you can only work there a maximum of four years. And you are initially hired for a set two year term.

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stuaxo 7y ago

You know that something that says it's neutral is always anything but. Very readable, and it screams "America" which makes sense given who made it.

jpatokal 7y ago
Does it? To my admittedly untutored eye the first impression is Helvetica aka Switzerland, although it's not quite as stripped down: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvetica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvetica This, on the other hand, screams America: https://www.dafont.com/american-captain.font https://www.dafont.com/american-captain.font

SlowRobotAhead 7y ago

Nice lowercase L... first thing I look for in a font! |Il nonsense is unacceptable, but I have to deal with it all the time.

pcwalton 7y ago

Good choice to base this on Franklin Gothic. Given that IRS tax forms already use it, it's effectively been part of the US government's "brand identity" for a long time.

rdsubhas 7y ago

https://github.com/google/fonts/issues/1923 https://github.com/google/fonts/issues/1923

jarvuschris 7y ago

Check out the Digital Services Act, a current bill going through congress to throw some gas on efforts like this: https://www.wired.com/story/kamala-harris-digital-services-act-2019/ https://www.wired.com/story/kamala-harris-digital-services-a...

TheRealPomax 7y ago

No FVAR version mentioned on the website? (If there isn't one: it's rather entirely worth converting your different masters into a single FVAR master instead)

lotyrin 7y ago

Hinting is all jacked up in Chrome on OSX.

canada_dry 7y ago

I dislike it! Especially how the curved base appears to drop below the flat base! In my mind this font lacks symmetry and consistency needed to be easily readable. It hurts my eyes.

k_sze 7y ago

What do “strong” and “neutral” mean in this context?

lbotos 7y ago
Inspired by Helvetica. I'm not being facetious. For example, this is a "strong" face, but it's not "neutral". https://eyeondesign.aiga.org/this-brutalist-inspired-stencil-font-looks-just-as-good-on-a-wall-as-it-does-a-book-cover/ https://eyeondesign.aiga.org/this-brutalist-inspired-stencil... Also strong, and not neutral. https://eyeondesign.aiga.org/use-this-brick-of-a-typeface-when-you-need-to-make-a-point/ https://eyeondesign.aiga.org/use-this-brick-of-a-typeface-wh...

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daveheq 7y ago

Arial's always looked fine to me... I don't know why this wheel needs to keep being reinvented.

danso 7y ago
Aesthetics and flaws aside, Arial is a proprietary font.