4 ms·

The problem with these efforts is that the FBI often does not consult with technical experts before indicting Chinese nationals and have resulted in a number of

by Leary 8y ago

The problem with these efforts is that the FBI often does not consult with technical experts before indicting Chinese nationals and have resulted in a number of false cases that have damaged the reputation of regular Chinese Americans. The rate at which Asians are falsely accused are twice those of other races[1] [1]https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/study-suggests-asians-most-likely-be-charged-espionage-n771836 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/study-suggests-as... https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/12/us/politics/us-drops-charges-that-professor-shared-technology-with-china.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/12/us/politics/us-drops-char... https://qz.com/1116990/the-aclu-says-the-fbi-is-accusing-chinese-american-scientists-of-espionage-because-of-their-race/ https://qz.com/1116990/the-aclu-says-the-fbi-is-accusing-chi... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/aug99/spying26.htm http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/aug99/sp... https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/long-reads/article/2144652/spying-charges-against-chinese-american https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/long-reads/arti...

arcticfox 8y ago
Surely the FBI should be held to account when they make mistakes or behave unfairly, but it seems absurd that they shouldn't consider connections to China when looking for Chinese espionage.
- Eric_WVGG 8y ago
  If you’re wondering why you’re being downvoted, read up on Soviet espionage during the cold war. Money talks.
  - arcticfox 8y ago
    I wasn't downvoted, and surely Chinese tactics will evolve over time to match those of the Soviets, but the majority of the Chinese espionage cases that I've seen so far have involved ethnic Chinese. For example, Walter Liew stealing the titanium dioxide formula (with help from paid off non-Chinese), or the engineering student in Chicago sending off recruiting profiles...all Chinese or Taiwanese.
- Not_a_pizza 8y ago
  "Mistakes" can also be just lack of sufficient evidence, or even evidence that is not collected properly. Mistakes do not always mean the party is innocent, just that we take them to be on a legal basis regardless of the truth.
  - dontbenebby 8y ago
    >"Mistakes" can also be just lack of sufficient evidence, or even evidence that is not collected properly. Mistakes do not always mean the party is innocent, just that we take them to be on a legal basis regardless of the truth. I am extremely worried by China's panopticism, especially in Xinjiang[1]. But violating the rights of Chinese students so egregiously that you're unable to secure a conviction because your evidence is "fruit of the poisonous tree"[2] harms American interests by handing a propaganda victory to the PRC. The FBI needs to ensure they follow the law when they investigate espionage so that offenders can be changed and convicted. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/04/04/world/asia/xinjiang-china-surveillance-prison.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/04/04/world/asia/xi... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree
    - meowface 8y ago
      Can you cite examples of them dropping cases against Chinese defendants because of evidence they had to exclude due to it being fruit of the poisonous tree? Inability to secure a conviction can happen for many reasons. The FBI may very well have been overzealous here (especially considering the history of the organization), but I think we'd need to look at the facts of each case in detail, rather than only the charge and conviction statistics by nationality. The case with the Temple professor appears to have resulted from a misinterpreted email.
      - dontbenebby 8y ago
        Parent is the one who stated that mistakes "can also be just lack of sufficient evidence, or even evidence that is not collected properly.", they would be the one to ask about specific cases. In general, you shouldn't be taking cases to trial you can't win, whether if it's due to evidence being thrown out or evidence not being present in the first place.

by Leary 8y ago

arcticfox 8y ago

Surely the FBI should be held to account when they make mistakes or behave unfairly, but it seems absurd that they shouldn't consider connections to China when looking for Chinese espionage.

Eric_WVGG 8y ago
If you’re wondering why you’re being downvoted, read up on Soviet espionage during the cold war. Money talks.
- arcticfox 8y ago
  I wasn't downvoted, and surely Chinese tactics will evolve over time to match those of the Soviets, but the majority of the Chinese espionage cases that I've seen so far have involved ethnic Chinese. For example, Walter Liew stealing the titanium dioxide formula (with help from paid off non-Chinese), or the engineering student in Chicago sending off recruiting profiles...all Chinese or Taiwanese.
Not_a_pizza 8y ago
"Mistakes" can also be just lack of sufficient evidence, or even evidence that is not collected properly. Mistakes do not always mean the party is innocent, just that we take them to be on a legal basis regardless of the truth.
- dontbenebby 8y ago
  >"Mistakes" can also be just lack of sufficient evidence, or even evidence that is not collected properly. Mistakes do not always mean the party is innocent, just that we take them to be on a legal basis regardless of the truth. I am extremely worried by China's panopticism, especially in Xinjiang[1]. But violating the rights of Chinese students so egregiously that you're unable to secure a conviction because your evidence is "fruit of the poisonous tree"[2] harms American interests by handing a propaganda victory to the PRC. The FBI needs to ensure they follow the law when they investigate espionage so that offenders can be changed and convicted. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/04/04/world/asia/xinjiang-china-surveillance-prison.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/04/04/world/asia/xi... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree
  - meowface 8y ago
    Can you cite examples of them dropping cases against Chinese defendants because of evidence they had to exclude due to it being fruit of the poisonous tree? Inability to secure a conviction can happen for many reasons. The FBI may very well have been overzealous here (especially considering the history of the organization), but I think we'd need to look at the facts of each case in detail, rather than only the charge and conviction statistics by nationality. The case with the Temple professor appears to have resulted from a misinterpreted email.
    - dontbenebby 8y ago
      Parent is the one who stated that mistakes "can also be just lack of sufficient evidence, or even evidence that is not collected properly.", they would be the one to ask about specific cases. In general, you shouldn't be taking cases to trial you can't win, whether if it's due to evidence being thrown out or evidence not being present in the first place.