9 ms·

As an Aussie that’s moved to Norway. I was shocked that the government here in Norway did the smart thing and monopolised the whole industry. Taxes are the same

As an Aussie that’s moved to Norway. I was shocked that the government here in Norway did the smart thing and monopolised the whole industry. Taxes are the same here in Norway as is in Australia, but it’s such a richer country. Everyone treats the oil money with such respect. We know that it came to us, and was temporary and instead of squandering this opportunity, it was done correctly.

devoply 8y ago
Canada did the opposite. Canada takes all the oil money for granted and basically has not used it to innovate anything. Instead, it's been drained by a few supposed elite that run oil companies and their cronies. The future of the oil provinces looks bleak.
- oilman 8y ago
  The attitude of those in the oil industry does not help this at all. I work in oil and talking politics to those I work with just makes me sad. There is a lot of anti-government hate. People are still resentful about the National Energy Program and that ended 30+ years ago. Its kind of a mess. I think its the notion that all the provinces are competing against each other, and that under any oil program some provinces will win and other lose that really holds us back. No one can see that we can all win by collectively working together. It doesn't help at all that there are now moneyed corporate interested involved that are not interested in seeing any changes take place.
  - throw0101a 8y ago
    > People are still resentful about the National Energy Program and that ended 30+ years ago. Its kind of a mess. As someone from Ontario, I wouldn't even care about it being federalized as long as it was better "provincialized": * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta_Heritage_Savings_Trust_Fund https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta_Heritage_Savings_Trust... At the very least only payout dividends on a portion of the returns on investment from the fund: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Permanent_Fund https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Permanent_Fund
- chongli 8y ago
  Canada's oil is very different from Norway's oil. Tarsands are extremely energy- and water-intensive to exploit. This makes it far less economical of a resource than the North Sea oil produced by Norway. Because Norway's oil is more profitable, it can be taxed much more heavily. If you were to tax the tarsands at the same rate, it would put the companies out of business.
  - devoply 8y ago
    Wasn't really what I was getting at... which is more in the lines of the oil industry is going the way of the dinosaurs we need to found some new industries with its profit in ordr to survive the next century. However, since you want to talk about it, oil companies fleece Canada as well... "While royalty rates in Newfoundland are the highest in Canada, in Alberta they have fallen from a 40 per cent high during the 1970s to less than four per cent, and a complex system of exemptions ensures companies often pay even less." That's insane. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/true-north/2017/oct/26/revealed-oil-giants-pay-billions-less-tax-in-canada-than-abroad https://www.theguardian.com/environment/true-north/2017/oct/...
    - vkou 8y ago
      What's even more amazing is that ~2% of Canada's GDP is oil, yet if you were listen to the braying of the oil companies, and their bought-and-paid-for stable of politicians, they make it sound like that number is ~25%. We are literally bending over backwards to subsidize and prop up a rounding error in our economy.
      - devoply 8y ago
        It is around 25% of Alberta's GDP. Much of the service and secondary industries that derive profits as a result of that industry and are directly affected by it. So if that industry dies, there will be far reaching effects since there is nothing to take its place. The service economy which is a much larger part would be significantly effected.
        8y ago
- throw0101a 8y ago
  > Canada did the opposite. Not "Canada", but the province of Alberta. Norway is a 'monolithic' country, but Canada has federalism where the provinces have jurisdiction over certain areas. And Alberta did/does have a fund, but over the decades various governments (generally Conervative) have decided not to really invest into it: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta_Heritage_Savings_Trust_Fund https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta_Heritage_Savings_Trust...
jessriedel 8y ago
> Taxes are the same here in Norway as is in Australia, but it’s such a richer country. This is not a sensible comparison. Norway produces 313,661 barrels per day per million people, which is higher than all other countries besides Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE. Australia produces 12,010 bbl/day/millon-people, i.e., just 3.8% of Norway's per capita production. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_produ... The extreme amount of mineral wealth that each Norwegian citizen has inherited makes Norway very difficult to compare to non-Arab countries on any issue connected to economics (i.e., basically everything). Relatedly, the cost of living in Norway is much higher than Australia, despite Australia's extreme remoteness. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.jsp https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.js...
- dalore 8y ago
  As another fellow Aussie emigrant (not to Norway though), I believe they were not only talking about oil resources but all the other natural resources Australia is selling. My bet is Uranium is going to be an important one too in the future.
  - jessriedel 8y ago
    Eye-balling the numbers, you'd pick up less than a factor of 5. I encourage you to look at the details and report back. You should also correct for the natural resources that Norway has the Australia lacks, like fish (almost 10% of Norway's exports inclusive of oil!).
    - the_duke 8y ago
      Australia doesn't have ocean access and fishing industries?
      - jessriedel 8y ago
        Fish makes up just 0.13% of Australian exports https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/aus/ https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/aus/ Next time, consider looking the number up yourself and reporting back rather than just asking the question and so forcing me to look up the answer for you (or else look like I'm ignoring the issue).
marvin 8y ago
> Taxes are the same here in Norway as is in Australia Is that true? Norway has a 78% tax on profits from the oil companies.
- Tor3 8y ago
  I'm guessing that was about personal income taxes, which may or may not be ~similar - I haven't checked.
  - marvin 8y ago
    Okay. Comparisons of personal income tax in Norway usually come out very misleading, since personal income tax only accounts for around half of a person's total tax burden. (For instance, there's a 14% employment tax, 25% VAT, car taxes that increase vehicle purchase cost by 100% and fuel cost by 200%, toll roads that are impossible to avoid during daily errands, 0.85% annual net worth tax, 31% capital gains tax, property taxes and municipal taxes, and that's without getting into extra taxes for luxury products or how corporate profits are taxed).
cylinder 8y ago
They are completely different situations, not even remotely comparable.

devoply 8y ago

Canada did the opposite. Canada takes all the oil money for granted and basically has not used it to innovate anything. Instead, it's been drained by a few supposed elite that run oil companies and their cronies. The future of the oil provinces looks bleak.

oilman 8y ago
The attitude of those in the oil industry does not help this at all. I work in oil and talking politics to those I work with just makes me sad. There is a lot of anti-government hate. People are still resentful about the National Energy Program and that ended 30+ years ago. Its kind of a mess. I think its the notion that all the provinces are competing against each other, and that under any oil program some provinces will win and other lose that really holds us back. No one can see that we can all win by collectively working together. It doesn't help at all that there are now moneyed corporate interested involved that are not interested in seeing any changes take place.
- throw0101a 8y ago
  > People are still resentful about the National Energy Program and that ended 30+ years ago. Its kind of a mess. As someone from Ontario, I wouldn't even care about it being federalized as long as it was better "provincialized": * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta_Heritage_Savings_Trust_Fund https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta_Heritage_Savings_Trust... At the very least only payout dividends on a portion of the returns on investment from the fund: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Permanent_Fund https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Permanent_Fund
chongli 8y ago
Canada's oil is very different from Norway's oil. Tarsands are extremely energy- and water-intensive to exploit. This makes it far less economical of a resource than the North Sea oil produced by Norway. Because Norway's oil is more profitable, it can be taxed much more heavily. If you were to tax the tarsands at the same rate, it would put the companies out of business.
- devoply 8y ago
  Wasn't really what I was getting at... which is more in the lines of the oil industry is going the way of the dinosaurs we need to found some new industries with its profit in ordr to survive the next century. However, since you want to talk about it, oil companies fleece Canada as well... "While royalty rates in Newfoundland are the highest in Canada, in Alberta they have fallen from a 40 per cent high during the 1970s to less than four per cent, and a complex system of exemptions ensures companies often pay even less." That's insane. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/true-north/2017/oct/26/revealed-oil-giants-pay-billions-less-tax-in-canada-than-abroad https://www.theguardian.com/environment/true-north/2017/oct/...
  - vkou 8y ago
    What's even more amazing is that ~2% of Canada's GDP is oil, yet if you were listen to the braying of the oil companies, and their bought-and-paid-for stable of politicians, they make it sound like that number is ~25%. We are literally bending over backwards to subsidize and prop up a rounding error in our economy.
    - devoply 8y ago
      It is around 25% of Alberta's GDP. Much of the service and secondary industries that derive profits as a result of that industry and are directly affected by it. So if that industry dies, there will be far reaching effects since there is nothing to take its place. The service economy which is a much larger part would be significantly effected.
      - 8y ago
throw0101a 8y ago
> Canada did the opposite. Not "Canada", but the province of Alberta. Norway is a 'monolithic' country, but Canada has federalism where the provinces have jurisdiction over certain areas. And Alberta did/does have a fund, but over the decades various governments (generally Conervative) have decided not to really invest into it: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta_Heritage_Savings_Trust_Fund https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta_Heritage_Savings_Trust...

jessriedel 8y ago

> Taxes are the same here in Norway as is in Australia, but it’s such a richer country. This is not a sensible comparison. Norway produces 313,661 barrels per day per million people, which is higher than all other countries besides Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE. Australia produces 12,010 bbl/day/millon-people, i.e., just 3.8% of Norway's per capita production. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_produ... The extreme amount of mineral wealth that each Norwegian citizen has inherited makes Norway very difficult to compare to non-Arab countries on any issue connected to economics (i.e., basically everything). Relatedly, the cost of living in Norway is much higher than Australia, despite Australia's extreme remoteness. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.jsp https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.js...

dalore 8y ago
As another fellow Aussie emigrant (not to Norway though), I believe they were not only talking about oil resources but all the other natural resources Australia is selling. My bet is Uranium is going to be an important one too in the future.
- jessriedel 8y ago
  Eye-balling the numbers, you'd pick up less than a factor of 5. I encourage you to look at the details and report back. You should also correct for the natural resources that Norway has the Australia lacks, like fish (almost 10% of Norway's exports inclusive of oil!).
  - the_duke 8y ago
    Australia doesn't have ocean access and fishing industries?
    - jessriedel 8y ago
      Fish makes up just 0.13% of Australian exports https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/aus/ https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/aus/ Next time, consider looking the number up yourself and reporting back rather than just asking the question and so forcing me to look up the answer for you (or else look like I'm ignoring the issue).

marvin 8y ago

> Taxes are the same here in Norway as is in Australia Is that true? Norway has a 78% tax on profits from the oil companies.

Tor3 8y ago
I'm guessing that was about personal income taxes, which may or may not be ~similar - I haven't checked.
- marvin 8y ago
  Okay. Comparisons of personal income tax in Norway usually come out very misleading, since personal income tax only accounts for around half of a person's total tax burden. (For instance, there's a 14% employment tax, 25% VAT, car taxes that increase vehicle purchase cost by 100% and fuel cost by 200%, toll roads that are impossible to avoid during daily errands, 0.85% annual net worth tax, 31% capital gains tax, property taxes and municipal taxes, and that's without getting into extra taxes for luxury products or how corporate profits are taxed).

cylinder 8y ago

They are completely different situations, not even remotely comparable.