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I find it baffling how western nations can't understand how they're now providing ideological justification to the same stances Russia and China are taking towa

I find it baffling how western nations can't understand how they're now providing ideological justification to the same stances Russia and China are taking towards the internet.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
MrEldritch 8y ago
It's not particularly baffling if you think that Western nations are taking these stances for approximately the same reasons as Russia and China are.
timomax 8y ago
Not really. It's not the same ideology. It's the same tool.
- rayvd 8y ago
  Leads to the same place.
- CzechTech 8y ago
  Doesn't matter what kind of authoritarianism it is. Marxism, fascism, religious extremism... same deal. Freedoms are very easily given away, but getting them back usually costs a lot of lives. Sometimes millions of lives. I will never understand how shortsighted people can get when it comes to this simple concept. The fact that you're making the rules today doesn't mean that you're going to be making them tomorrow (or in 10 years). "Hate speech" laws are the greatest example of this. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see a problem in defining "hate speech" as "whatever the personal opinion of a police man or a judge happens to be at the time". Some countries, like the UK, have already gone far beyond even hate speech laws straight into persecuting wrongthink and "offense" (nazi pugs anyone?). It's sad to see because it can't really end well. The west's pathological obsession with being anti-racist (it's not even anti-racism at this point, it's anti-bigotry where bigotry can mean anything from being a white nationalist all the way to not validating morbidly obese people). It's a shame you pretty much have to be a conservative (or a citizen of a post-communist eastern european country) these days to realize these simple concepts. When the feelings start taking over logic and reason it's time stop and think what you're actually advocating for.
maze-le 8y ago
Only if you still belive the cold-war narrative of Freedmon=West vs. Tyranny=East. We live in the wold of a worldwide corporate kleptocracy -- regardless of geographic region. There are of course differences in how the states handle opposition and dissenting voices, but all in all the East-vs-West distinction (or ideological differences in general) are not a good framework of description, when trying to analyze issues concerning state and power these days.
- zachguo 8y ago
  State Owned Corporations v.s. Corporation Owned State
Sniffnoy 8y ago
It's only baffling if you assume that the people in government are smart. Somewhat less glibly, it's compartmentalization, basically. Take an ordinary, not-especially-intelligent person who has basically authoritarian intuitions, teach them liberal principles, and you'll get a person who espouses the liberal way only in the particular examples you taught them. (Or in other examples that someone else explicitly connects to those principles.) Most people are just really terrible at applying things they notionally believe outside the specific contexts they associate them with.
- wallace_f 8y ago
  Yea.. Even one of my friends with an Ivy degree read and espoused the views of a popular conservative pundit for years, even lauding them as as basically a religious liberal. People throughout history are the same as they are today. Subservient to authority, self-serving, lazy thinkers, and barely even able to think for themselves in the first place.
  - jquery 8y ago
    >Even one of my friends with an Ivy degree read and espoused the views of a popular conservative pundit for years, even lauding them as as basically a religious liberal. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, are you saying that no well-educated person would have any conservative viewpoints? That seems patently nonsense.
    - wallace_f 8y ago
      No, I was agreeing with the parent comment and offered an example. Within this context, I'm not trying to make any left vs right, or vice versa, political arguments. This person self-identified as liberal. However, they only recognized liberal views within the contexts they had been pre-familiarized with. In fact, this person read, regurgitated, and lauded conservative views for years while beleiving them to be liberal views. This is a particularly hyper-educated person (though in a non-technical field completely removed from economics, politics).

I find it baffling how western nations can't understand how they're now providing ideological justification to the same stances Russia and China are taking towards the internet.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

MrEldritch 8y ago

It's not particularly baffling if you think that Western nations are taking these stances for approximately the same reasons as Russia and China are.

timomax 8y ago

Not really. It's not the same ideology. It's the same tool.

rayvd 8y ago
Leads to the same place.
CzechTech 8y ago
Doesn't matter what kind of authoritarianism it is. Marxism, fascism, religious extremism... same deal. Freedoms are very easily given away, but getting them back usually costs a lot of lives. Sometimes millions of lives. I will never understand how shortsighted people can get when it comes to this simple concept. The fact that you're making the rules today doesn't mean that you're going to be making them tomorrow (or in 10 years). "Hate speech" laws are the greatest example of this. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see a problem in defining "hate speech" as "whatever the personal opinion of a police man or a judge happens to be at the time". Some countries, like the UK, have already gone far beyond even hate speech laws straight into persecuting wrongthink and "offense" (nazi pugs anyone?). It's sad to see because it can't really end well. The west's pathological obsession with being anti-racist (it's not even anti-racism at this point, it's anti-bigotry where bigotry can mean anything from being a white nationalist all the way to not validating morbidly obese people). It's a shame you pretty much have to be a conservative (or a citizen of a post-communist eastern european country) these days to realize these simple concepts. When the feelings start taking over logic and reason it's time stop and think what you're actually advocating for.

maze-le 8y ago

Only if you still belive the cold-war narrative of Freedmon=West vs. Tyranny=East. We live in the wold of a worldwide corporate kleptocracy -- regardless of geographic region. There are of course differences in how the states handle opposition and dissenting voices, but all in all the East-vs-West distinction (or ideological differences in general) are not a good framework of description, when trying to analyze issues concerning state and power these days.

zachguo 8y ago
State Owned Corporations v.s. Corporation Owned State

Sniffnoy 8y ago

It's only baffling if you assume that the people in government are smart. Somewhat less glibly, it's compartmentalization, basically. Take an ordinary, not-especially-intelligent person who has basically authoritarian intuitions, teach them liberal principles, and you'll get a person who espouses the liberal way only in the particular examples you taught them. (Or in other examples that someone else explicitly connects to those principles.) Most people are just really terrible at applying things they notionally believe outside the specific contexts they associate them with.

wallace_f 8y ago
Yea.. Even one of my friends with an Ivy degree read and espoused the views of a popular conservative pundit for years, even lauding them as as basically a religious liberal. People throughout history are the same as they are today. Subservient to authority, self-serving, lazy thinkers, and barely even able to think for themselves in the first place.
- jquery 8y ago
  >Even one of my friends with an Ivy degree read and espoused the views of a popular conservative pundit for years, even lauding them as as basically a religious liberal. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, are you saying that no well-educated person would have any conservative viewpoints? That seems patently nonsense.
  - wallace_f 8y ago
    No, I was agreeing with the parent comment and offered an example. Within this context, I'm not trying to make any left vs right, or vice versa, political arguments. This person self-identified as liberal. However, they only recognized liberal views within the contexts they had been pre-familiarized with. In fact, this person read, regurgitated, and lauded conservative views for years while beleiving them to be liberal views. This is a particularly hyper-educated person (though in a non-technical field completely removed from economics, politics).