3 ms·

I think the risk there is more for the man than the woman. I don't think there is anything inherently bad in trying to circumvent the natural hierarchies of dat

by Udik 8y ago

I think the risk there is more for the man than the woman. I don't think there is anything inherently bad in trying to circumvent the natural hierarchies of dating by means of your (unearned) social background. It's always part of the game anyway, and it doesn't mean that you want to "own" somebody or anything like that. But it's naive, as it won't last long in the new social environment. I.e. the beautiful wife will soon discover she has much better possibilities in the new country.

watwut 8y ago
The risk for the wife is that he will turn possessive, controlling and as a result abusive. Because he bought her, he will want to have control over her. She will never be respected partner with equal agency. The risk is also in sort of men attracted to this proposition. They are literally dangerous ones to date, whether physically or for mental abuse. Having to run out of abusive marriage sux big time and have long term consequences for women.
- chillacy 8y ago
  > ReiserFS Anyone remember that story?
- philonoist 8y ago
  And that is the risk she is accommodating in. She could always divorce away before it turns bad and look for other options. That is what the parent comment means "the beautiful wife will soon discover she has much better possibilities in the new country." Abusive marriages have nothing to do with if they wedded out of mail order or love. Either can turn abusive. > Because he bought her, Buying humans is illegal. > She will never be respected partner with equal agency. There is never a grain of truth in it except for vastly simplistic generalization. > They are literally dangerous ones to date Again! premature judgmental attitude.
  - watwut 8y ago
    Abusive relationships have a lot to do with one party believing to be entitled to control the other party. And those who order a bride are in that category. It is not like they would be ordering her for any other reason. That is simple risk factor evaluation one does when selecting partners. Normaly you guess on small hints, in this case it is pretty easy to see where you stand. For sex, there is prostitution. This mail oder thing is about other wishes. And plan to be cool with whatever she decides to do is not one of them.
    - philonoist 8y ago
      Meh! Men are not some robots that us pessimists programmed to turn into all the list of attributes that you just now prescribed when met with so and so situation. Just because I bought a cat or dog doesn't mean I am going to abuse by feeling entitled and owning it. With mail order women, women get just the same rights as any other women in marriage. Police would be after me otherwise. It is the responsibility of such women who voluntarily participate as mail order brides to educate themselves of their rights to assert them whenever apposite. Mail order transaction is perfectly legal and has no more abuse risk statistically than other kinds of mainstream marriages. >It is not like they would be ordering her for any other reason. Actually plenty said it is like they would be ordering her for other reasons - love, companionship and marriage. You are again and again drawing premature conclusions like "People who own a kitchen knife are damn sure to be murderers!". Udik explains it better -https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19622835 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19622835
- Udik 8y ago
  I think your assessment is clouded by some strong moral issue you have with the idea of finding a spouse abroad, exploiting a differential in welfare between two countries. You insist on the idea that the wife has been "bought", and that it implies some sort of dominant/ controlling attitude on the male's part. In fact I would argue that the opposite could be true: men who resort to "mail brides" are simply trying to find their way around a system that puts them at the bottom of the ladder, often exactly because they are not dominant enough. Dominant psychopaths don't need mail order brides, they are often successful and can find plenty of partners anyway. Also, if we're authorized to draw psychological inferences from these choices: what do you think of women who choose to date (relatively) wealthy foreigners online, refusing to find a partner in their own country? It's not that there is a shortage of males in Ukraine or Brazil or the Philippines. These women are choosing to ignore local partners for the prospect of a life of comforts (because this is the idea you get from foreign media). So if we inform our psychological insights to our moral biases, who's the psychopath here? The naive loser who thinks he can trick the system and get a partner above his level, or the ambitious girl who shuns her local suitors for the prospect of a wealthy life abroad with a stranger?

by Udik 8y ago

watwut 8y ago

The risk for the wife is that he will turn possessive, controlling and as a result abusive. Because he bought her, he will want to have control over her. She will never be respected partner with equal agency. The risk is also in sort of men attracted to this proposition. They are literally dangerous ones to date, whether physically or for mental abuse. Having to run out of abusive marriage sux big time and have long term consequences for women.

chillacy 8y ago
> ReiserFS Anyone remember that story?
philonoist 8y ago
And that is the risk she is accommodating in. She could always divorce away before it turns bad and look for other options. That is what the parent comment means "the beautiful wife will soon discover she has much better possibilities in the new country." Abusive marriages have nothing to do with if they wedded out of mail order or love. Either can turn abusive. > Because he bought her, Buying humans is illegal. > She will never be respected partner with equal agency. There is never a grain of truth in it except for vastly simplistic generalization. > They are literally dangerous ones to date Again! premature judgmental attitude.
- watwut 8y ago
  Abusive relationships have a lot to do with one party believing to be entitled to control the other party. And those who order a bride are in that category. It is not like they would be ordering her for any other reason. That is simple risk factor evaluation one does when selecting partners. Normaly you guess on small hints, in this case it is pretty easy to see where you stand. For sex, there is prostitution. This mail oder thing is about other wishes. And plan to be cool with whatever she decides to do is not one of them.
  - philonoist 8y ago
    Meh! Men are not some robots that us pessimists programmed to turn into all the list of attributes that you just now prescribed when met with so and so situation. Just because I bought a cat or dog doesn't mean I am going to abuse by feeling entitled and owning it. With mail order women, women get just the same rights as any other women in marriage. Police would be after me otherwise. It is the responsibility of such women who voluntarily participate as mail order brides to educate themselves of their rights to assert them whenever apposite. Mail order transaction is perfectly legal and has no more abuse risk statistically than other kinds of mainstream marriages. >It is not like they would be ordering her for any other reason. Actually plenty said it is like they would be ordering her for other reasons - love, companionship and marriage. You are again and again drawing premature conclusions like "People who own a kitchen knife are damn sure to be murderers!". Udik explains it better -https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19622835 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19622835
Udik 8y ago
I think your assessment is clouded by some strong moral issue you have with the idea of finding a spouse abroad, exploiting a differential in welfare between two countries. You insist on the idea that the wife has been "bought", and that it implies some sort of dominant/ controlling attitude on the male's part. In fact I would argue that the opposite could be true: men who resort to "mail brides" are simply trying to find their way around a system that puts them at the bottom of the ladder, often exactly because they are not dominant enough. Dominant psychopaths don't need mail order brides, they are often successful and can find plenty of partners anyway. Also, if we're authorized to draw psychological inferences from these choices: what do you think of women who choose to date (relatively) wealthy foreigners online, refusing to find a partner in their own country? It's not that there is a shortage of males in Ukraine or Brazil or the Philippines. These women are choosing to ignore local partners for the prospect of a life of comforts (because this is the idea you get from foreign media). So if we inform our psychological insights to our moral biases, who's the psychopath here? The naive loser who thinks he can trick the system and get a partner above his level, or the ambitious girl who shuns her local suitors for the prospect of a wealthy life abroad with a stranger?