4 ms·

Enforced monogamy + the risk of pregnancy is not a "solution". The risk of pregnancy is a biological fact with far more severe penalties for women. Enforced mo

Enforced monogamy + the risk of pregnancy is not a "solution". The risk of pregnancy is a biological fact with far more severe penalties for women. Enforced monogamy in western societies is part of a broader history of social control that came to exist because it was good at perpetuating itself-- and which also unfairly disadvantaged women. It's unfortunate that we evolved to be the way we are, but the "instability" we're seeing now is partly a result of fixing much deeper inequalities that've existed for most of human history. The real source of the present instability is socialized (and partly biological) gender differences in how men and women approach courtship.

fxbl0i 8y ago
If the solution to "inequality" is creating another inequality which harms far more people, then it might not be a solution at all.
- maxkwallace 8y ago
  Your comment is simply veiled misogyny.
  - justtopost 8y ago
    Is this a serious comment? Are we flinging accusations without explanation now? The bias seems all yours.
  - chillacy 7y ago
    Maybe assume good faith and talk to them so you can educate us? Don’t leave us hanging.
    - maxkwallace 7y ago
      I tried. I couldn't come up with a charitable interpretation of "harms far more people" that I could respond to in a meaningful way. So I concluded that it was a troll and lashed out. It'd probably be better if I just ignored the comment. But I think the claim "harms far more people" is absurd if you consider the unequal harms done to women through history, and the fact that they're half the population. The commenter didn't make an effort to engage in good faith discussion with my post so it's unreasonable to apply the same standard to me. I'm happy to reply to comments like yours though.
      - chillacy 7y ago
        Thanks. And yea I've experienced that too, people tend to engage on a similar level, and so the most engaging comments tend to be flamebait.
freshm087 8y ago
Enforced monogamy in western societies is part of a broader history of social control that came to exist because it was good at perpetuating itself It's one interpretation, good for those who accepts the faith tenets of post-structuralism. The other is that it came to exist because of its viability in particular economic conditions. Also, if acceptance of promiscuity as a social norm really benefits exactly women is a really big question.
- maxkwallace 8y ago
  I don't know what "post-structuralism" means and I don't know the supposed tenets you're referring to. But I agree you can also make an economic argument for why marriage has been an enduring institution in society throughout history. "Acceptance of promiscuity" is a bit of a contradiction in terms since "promiscuous" is inherently pejorative. I will say this: "promiscuity" has always been far more socially acceptable for men than it has been for women. Despite "enforced monogamy" prostitution is called the "oldest profession" for a reason and extramarital affairs have been happening for a long, long time. If you want to get nuanced, "enforced monogamy" doesn't really mean "enforced monogamy" because affairs were accepted in certain sociocultral contexts in England and France far before the sexual revolution.
  - kuzehanka 8y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-structuralism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-structuralism Philosophy is a deep rabbit hole but cursory philosophy should really be mandatory in secondary education. I'm not at all affiliated but I found the podcast Philosophise This to be very informative and interesting.
  - freshm087 8y ago
    I'm not a native speaker, and may miss some nuances, but promiscuous is defined as "having multiple sexual partners" by my dictionary which I think is as neutral as possible. Promiscuity is at first, and foremost was (and still is, in spite of contraception availability) practically more acceptable for men. And monogomy among other things is a constraint on men's behavior - forcing to accept social, and economic responsibilities before fulfilling sexual urges. You are right noting that it rarely worked in any absolute way, but I don't think any law, whether written, or not can be 100% effectively implemented. People steal all the time, but I suppose you wouldn't say it's because related norms are not enforced, right? Monogomy's real application varied over times, cultures, and spaces, but it was certainly enforced by societal pressure, and legally too. Actually, in my father's youth years (and it's not that deep in history) it was hard to have sex before marriage. It was for sure possible, but dangerous for reputation of both participants (probably more damaging for a women, but damaging for both nevertheless). It wasn't US, and "sexual revolution" came to us much later, so that's probably why you may have no living witnesses for it. Also, prostitution was until quite recent times seen as a moral compromise acceptable only because of long serving soldiers, and sailors. In most societies it wasn't ok for a family man to visit a house of prostitution, and in some cases it was even criminalized.
Fjolsvith 8y ago
> The risk of pregnancy is a biological fact with far more severe penalties for women. This is arguable with modern society ensuring that support is provided from men. Men are wising up to the long term consequences of pregnancy and relationships with women - see the MGTOW movement.
toasterlovin 8y ago
> which also unfairly disadvantaged women FWIW, enforced monogamy is harmful to women in some ways (hard to leave a bad relationship), but helpful in others (it's hard to end up a single mom when the norm around unexpected pregnancies is a shotgun wedding).
- maxkwallace 7y ago
  Yes, enforced monogamy may be helpful to women in some circumstances. But I think we both know it's not that simple. Sometimes it's better to be a single mom than stuck in a bad marriage with a husband who didn't want that in the first place.

fxbl0i 8y ago

If the solution to "inequality" is creating another inequality which harms far more people, then it might not be a solution at all.

maxkwallace 8y ago
Your comment is simply veiled misogyny.
- justtopost 8y ago
  Is this a serious comment? Are we flinging accusations without explanation now? The bias seems all yours.
- chillacy 7y ago
  Maybe assume good faith and talk to them so you can educate us? Don’t leave us hanging.
  - maxkwallace 7y ago
    I tried. I couldn't come up with a charitable interpretation of "harms far more people" that I could respond to in a meaningful way. So I concluded that it was a troll and lashed out. It'd probably be better if I just ignored the comment. But I think the claim "harms far more people" is absurd if you consider the unequal harms done to women through history, and the fact that they're half the population. The commenter didn't make an effort to engage in good faith discussion with my post so it's unreasonable to apply the same standard to me. I'm happy to reply to comments like yours though.
    - chillacy 7y ago
      Thanks. And yea I've experienced that too, people tend to engage on a similar level, and so the most engaging comments tend to be flamebait.

freshm087 8y ago

Enforced monogamy in western societies is part of a broader history of social control that came to exist because it was good at perpetuating itself It's one interpretation, good for those who accepts the faith tenets of post-structuralism. The other is that it came to exist because of its viability in particular economic conditions. Also, if acceptance of promiscuity as a social norm really benefits exactly women is a really big question.

maxkwallace 8y ago
I don't know what "post-structuralism" means and I don't know the supposed tenets you're referring to. But I agree you can also make an economic argument for why marriage has been an enduring institution in society throughout history. "Acceptance of promiscuity" is a bit of a contradiction in terms since "promiscuous" is inherently pejorative. I will say this: "promiscuity" has always been far more socially acceptable for men than it has been for women. Despite "enforced monogamy" prostitution is called the "oldest profession" for a reason and extramarital affairs have been happening for a long, long time. If you want to get nuanced, "enforced monogamy" doesn't really mean "enforced monogamy" because affairs were accepted in certain sociocultral contexts in England and France far before the sexual revolution.
- kuzehanka 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-structuralism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-structuralism Philosophy is a deep rabbit hole but cursory philosophy should really be mandatory in secondary education. I'm not at all affiliated but I found the podcast Philosophise This to be very informative and interesting.
- freshm087 8y ago
  I'm not a native speaker, and may miss some nuances, but promiscuous is defined as "having multiple sexual partners" by my dictionary which I think is as neutral as possible. Promiscuity is at first, and foremost was (and still is, in spite of contraception availability) practically more acceptable for men. And monogomy among other things is a constraint on men's behavior - forcing to accept social, and economic responsibilities before fulfilling sexual urges. You are right noting that it rarely worked in any absolute way, but I don't think any law, whether written, or not can be 100% effectively implemented. People steal all the time, but I suppose you wouldn't say it's because related norms are not enforced, right? Monogomy's real application varied over times, cultures, and spaces, but it was certainly enforced by societal pressure, and legally too. Actually, in my father's youth years (and it's not that deep in history) it was hard to have sex before marriage. It was for sure possible, but dangerous for reputation of both participants (probably more damaging for a women, but damaging for both nevertheless). It wasn't US, and "sexual revolution" came to us much later, so that's probably why you may have no living witnesses for it. Also, prostitution was until quite recent times seen as a moral compromise acceptable only because of long serving soldiers, and sailors. In most societies it wasn't ok for a family man to visit a house of prostitution, and in some cases it was even criminalized.

Fjolsvith 8y ago

> The risk of pregnancy is a biological fact with far more severe penalties for women. This is arguable with modern society ensuring that support is provided from men. Men are wising up to the long term consequences of pregnancy and relationships with women - see the MGTOW movement.

toasterlovin 8y ago

> which also unfairly disadvantaged women FWIW, enforced monogamy is harmful to women in some ways (hard to leave a bad relationship), but helpful in others (it's hard to end up a single mom when the norm around unexpected pregnancies is a shotgun wedding).

maxkwallace 7y ago
Yes, enforced monogamy may be helpful to women in some circumstances. But I think we both know it's not that simple. Sometimes it's better to be a single mom than stuck in a bad marriage with a husband who didn't want that in the first place.