4 ms·

I think there is a lot of value in fiction. Reading some classics like the sibling commenter mentioned: Shakespeare, Homer, Tolstoy, etc. Even if the fiction is

I think there is a lot of value in fiction. Reading some classics like the sibling commenter mentioned: Shakespeare, Homer, Tolstoy, etc. Even if the fiction is a lie, you learn a lot about how other people think through fiction. "Fiction is a lie that tells the truth" or so they say [1]. Even with Star Trek beyond TNG, the show fundamentally reflects Gene Roddenberry's ideas of what a post-scarcity society (symbolized by the replicator) looks like. Unlike our society that prizes money as what others judge you based on, in Star Trek, there is no money. People have the right not to work if they don't want to, but to gain prestige you need to contribute to society by joining Starfleet where values like morality and heroism are highly prized [2]. [1] http://edteck.peterpappas.com/rothberg/fictionisalie.htm http://edteck.peterpappas.com/rothberg/fictionisalie.htm [2] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/27040338-trekonomics https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/27040338-trekonomics

skookumchuck 8y ago
Oh, I still read fiction, and I enjoyed watching Star Trek TOS. But really, how many times can you rewatch them? I know about Roddenberry's ideas, too. Lots of people have ideas. Roddenberry's are not that sophisticated (compared with, say, Tolkien's). It doesn't take much text to explain his ideas. And then what? You have silly people attempting to create "canon" for their dreamworld? ST certainly is Roddenberry's vision of utopia. But consider that people have endlessly attempted to create utopias on earth. Isn't that more interesting? The Pilgrims tried to create one. The Amish tried. The Mormons tried. The Soviets tried. The Nazis tried. Kellogg tried. Jim Jones tried. What's different about ST is you can always make a fictional utopia work by just typing in "... and it works!" That makes it, to me, fundamentally uninteresting compared to real world attempts that are unable to adjust their scripts to reality.
teddyh 8y ago
The problem with fiction is that it suffers from the “author fiat” problem a.k.a. “it works and has no problems because the author says so”. Real life has no such cheat, and real history and situations can be more usefully examined for problems. Fiction can be useful for brainstorming ideas, but as realistic target it is dangerous. Regarding Star Trek and post-scarcity, I can only say that not everybody is convinced by what it canonically presents itself to be: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Trek-Marxism.html http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Trek-Marxism.html
- krapp 8y ago
  Star Trek was never intended to portray a realistic, consistent or well thought out post-scarcity society. You could probably describe the entirety of what's portrayed about that society on the back of a napkin. It runs on magic and nonsensoleum (replicators, transporters and free energy, none of which can exist in the real world) and the unjustified assumption that humanity will simply abandon its vices and prejudices if presented with enough magical wish machines and space communism, rather than use those magical wish machines to manufacture weapons and drugs and rob banks and kidnap people with transporters. Star Trek is just entertainment, and any attempt to read more deeply into it or extrapolate it into the real world, other than through whatever vaguely moralistic message the plot, itself, attempts to portray, is bound to be a waste of time.
aestetix 8y ago
Good fiction explores ideas which are timeless. Also, I would say that the "beginning, middle, end" model is a rather superficial framing. Take the Homeric works like the Iliad, for example. It starts right in the middle of a massive conflict that leads to the Trojan War (in media res). A new reader actually has to spend some time reading to get context as to what the hell is going on, and why. Also, novels are not the only forms of fiction. What about plays and short stories, or even songs?
- skookumchuck 8y ago
  I enjoy songs. A lot. The lyrics, however, are meaningless, mostly just short phrases repeated ad nauseum. It's silly to impute deep meaning into them. She loves you, yeah yeah yeah She loves you, yeah yeah yeah She loves you, and you know that can't be bad!
  - aestetix 8y ago
    What about lyrics from artists like Bob Dylan? Clearly I'm not the only one who thinks he writes poetry, given that he won the Nobel Prize for it ;)
    - skookumchuck 8y ago
      Sure, Dylan writes poetry. And it's enjoyable, I have many Dylan CDs. But if you're interested in learning more, it's a dead end.

skookumchuck 8y ago

Oh, I still read fiction, and I enjoyed watching Star Trek TOS. But really, how many times can you rewatch them? I know about Roddenberry's ideas, too. Lots of people have ideas. Roddenberry's are not that sophisticated (compared with, say, Tolkien's). It doesn't take much text to explain his ideas. And then what? You have silly people attempting to create "canon" for their dreamworld? ST certainly is Roddenberry's vision of utopia. But consider that people have endlessly attempted to create utopias on earth. Isn't that more interesting? The Pilgrims tried to create one. The Amish tried. The Mormons tried. The Soviets tried. The Nazis tried. Kellogg tried. Jim Jones tried. What's different about ST is you can always make a fictional utopia work by just typing in "... and it works!" That makes it, to me, fundamentally uninteresting compared to real world attempts that are unable to adjust their scripts to reality.

teddyh 8y ago

The problem with fiction is that it suffers from the “author fiat” problem a.k.a. “it works and has no problems because the author says so”. Real life has no such cheat, and real history and situations can be more usefully examined for problems. Fiction can be useful for brainstorming ideas, but as realistic target it is dangerous. Regarding Star Trek and post-scarcity, I can only say that not everybody is convinced by what it canonically presents itself to be: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Trek-Marxism.html http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Trek-Marxism.html

krapp 8y ago
Star Trek was never intended to portray a realistic, consistent or well thought out post-scarcity society. You could probably describe the entirety of what's portrayed about that society on the back of a napkin. It runs on magic and nonsensoleum (replicators, transporters and free energy, none of which can exist in the real world) and the unjustified assumption that humanity will simply abandon its vices and prejudices if presented with enough magical wish machines and space communism, rather than use those magical wish machines to manufacture weapons and drugs and rob banks and kidnap people with transporters. Star Trek is just entertainment, and any attempt to read more deeply into it or extrapolate it into the real world, other than through whatever vaguely moralistic message the plot, itself, attempts to portray, is bound to be a waste of time.

aestetix 8y ago

Good fiction explores ideas which are timeless. Also, I would say that the "beginning, middle, end" model is a rather superficial framing. Take the Homeric works like the Iliad, for example. It starts right in the middle of a massive conflict that leads to the Trojan War (in media res). A new reader actually has to spend some time reading to get context as to what the hell is going on, and why. Also, novels are not the only forms of fiction. What about plays and short stories, or even songs?

skookumchuck 8y ago
I enjoy songs. A lot. The lyrics, however, are meaningless, mostly just short phrases repeated ad nauseum. It's silly to impute deep meaning into them. She loves you, yeah yeah yeah She loves you, yeah yeah yeah She loves you, and you know that can't be bad!
- aestetix 8y ago
  What about lyrics from artists like Bob Dylan? Clearly I'm not the only one who thinks he writes poetry, given that he won the Nobel Prize for it ;)
  - skookumchuck 8y ago
    Sure, Dylan writes poetry. And it's enjoyable, I have many Dylan CDs. But if you're interested in learning more, it's a dead end.