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Note I'm skimming over things because I think we are talking past each other about things that don't strike to the heart of our conversation. If there is anythi

Note I'm skimming over things because I think we are talking past each other about things that don't strike to the heart of our conversation. If there is anything in particular that I have skipped that you'd like me to comment on, let me know. > You might as well be saying that "The sky is blue" was a meaningful sentence before English was invented. You're not distinguishing between propositions and sentences. "John is a bachelor" and "John is an unmarried man" are different sentences, but they express the same proposition. "Snow is white" and "Schnee ist weiss" are also different sentences--one is English, the other German--but they too express the same proposition. "The sky is blue" was not a meaningful sentence before English was invented, but the proposition it expresses was true before English was invented. Sentences that are claims about reality are labels for propositions. "2", "two, and "II" are just labels we use to talk about the number 2. To rephrase your boil down of my argument: "We use mathematics to [label propositions that] describe physical reality. Physical reality with the patterns that [are described by propositions, we now label with mathematics,] existed before we existed. Therefore, [propositions, we now label with mathematics,] existed before we existed." "And analogously:" "We use English to [label propositions that] describe physical reality. Physical reality with the patterns that [are described by propositions, we now label with English,] existed before we existed. Therefore, [propositions, we now label with English,] existed before we existed." > So, you can't use the testable patterns to demonstrate the existence of untestable abstract ideas. What evidence do you have that establishes this as true? >> A) If potential states of the universe do not exist, then the universe can't change states > Could you define what you mean by the word "exist"? To have objective reality or being. >> C) If potential states of the universe are physical, then potential states of the universe would be observable hear and now. > I can not observe the contents of your screen here and now. Does that mean that your screen is not physical? Fair. Omit the words "here and now" from all of my statements. >> E) Potential states of the universe are not actual and potential at the same time. > So, the universe does not exist? (You defined "potential" as "possible", so if a state can not be actual and potential at the same time, all actual states are impossible, hence there is no state for the universe to be in, thus the universe can not exist, right?) I did not define "potential" as "possible", I defined it as "possible state". I did not say "a state can not be actual and potential at the same time", I said "Potential states of the universe are not actual and potential at the same time". > Overall, I suspect this is all one big exercise in false equivocation, but we'll first have to nail down some definitions and details before I can put my finger on it. Sure, and I am more than willing to clean up how I am phrasing things if need be. >> How might you respond to a rephrasing such as "It is immoral to <X>"? > Assuming I didn't agree, I would probably ask you for the evidence to support that claim. > If you were to object that asking for evidence for moral claims is a category error (which I suspect is where you are going with this), I would ask you to define "morality". Correct. I would say it is a category error to seek out evidence for a moral claim itself. I would not say it is a category error to seek out evidence for why the moral claim should be accepted as true. Morality: Principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior. >> "God is a trinity of three divine persons each fully possessing one divine nature." > Does this god have any observable effects in physical reality? Absolutely.

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago
> You're not distinguishing between propositions and sentences. Because it is not a useful distinction for the topic at hand. Propositions are in the same category as sentences, as far as their dependency on representation is concerned. Take a random proposition that you think would have evaluated to true in the past, before humans existed, if an entity capable of evaluating the proposition had been around. Now, subtract from the concept that you have in your mind everything that is simply the (physical) world as it is (i.e., the "testable"/empirical aspects referenced by the proposition). What do you have left that could be considered to exist in any meaningful sense, absent a (physical) representation expressing the abstraction? > What evidence do you have that establishes this as true? You are shifting the burden of proof. If you think that that is a reliable method, that is up to you to demonstrate. If you prefer, I'll rephrase to "It has not been demonstrated that you can use the testable patterns to demonstrate the existence of untestable abstract ideas." > To have objective reality or being. And how would you define "objective reality" and "being"? Those seem to me more like synonyms than definitions!? > I did not define "potential" as "possible", I defined it as "possible state". So ... where you wrote "potential state", you meant "possible state state"?! > I did not say "a state can not be actual and potential at the same time", I said "Potential states of the universe are not actual and potential at the same time". Except the latter implies the former? When I resolve your definitions, your statement reads "possible states of the universe are not current and possible at the same time". Or more formally: For any state that is possible, the state must also be either not current or not possible at any given time. A state that is possible obviously can not be not possible. Thus, to fulfill this condition, a state that is possible has to be not current (i.e., if a state is possible, that implies that it is not current). From that it follows that a state that is current hast to be not possible (i.e., if a state is current, that implies that it is not possible). Or in other words: a state can not be current and possible at the same time. What did I miss? > Morality: Principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior. Well, as above: How would you define "right", "wrong", "good", and "bad" (in this context)?
- sonusario 8y ago
  > Propositions are in the same category as sentences, as far as their dependency on representation is concerned. What evidence do you have of this being the case? Think about what it would mean for the truth of "Snow is white" if it was dependent upon how it was represented. If you can represent something in more than one way, then that thing is not dependent upon its representation. > Take a random proposition that you think would have evaluated to true in the past, before humans existed, if an entity capable of evaluating the proposition had been around. Now, subtract from the concept that you have in your mind everything that is simply the (physical) world as it is (i.e., the "testable"/empirical aspects referenced by the proposition). What do you have left that could be considered to exist in any meaningful sense, absent a (physical) representation expressing the abstraction? You would have nothing, but you removed the physical world and have removed the propositions that go along with that world. The proposition "Snow is white" depends on the existence of snow being white, and it does not depend on the sentence "Snow is white". That being said, the proposition "1 < 2" does not depend on anything physical. So you can removed all physical things, and "1 < 2" will still be true under the Peano axioms. >> What evidence do you have that establishes this as true? > "It has not been demonstrated that you can use the testable patterns to demonstrate the existence of untestable abstract ideas." Not to be a burden, but to respond to your question could you give me a refresh: What are you considering to be a testable pattern? What are you considering to be an untestable abstract idea? >> To have objective reality or being. > And how would you define "objective reality" and "being"? Objective reality: not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts regarding the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them. > Those seem to me more like synonyms than definitions!? Uhh... the composition of words in a definition is synonymous with what they are defining. If you only use one word to define something, then that word is a synonym... I don't understand the point of this complaint. If you think the definition is wrong or obscure then please state why. Perhaps you don't like the definition because you are trying to find something that implies physicality? I got the definition straight from google... Is there some other dictionary you'd like to suggest? >> I did not define "potential" as "possible", I defined it as "possible state". > So ... where you wrote "potential state", you meant "possible state state"?! ... Or in other words: a state can not be current and possible at the same time. What did I miss? Oof, cleaning up it is... let's start from scratch (the "same time" stuff has been removed as I am acknowledging that it made no sense): (Potential = possibility; actually = currently) =========================================================================================================================================================== A) If it is not the case that the potential for the universe being in a different state actually exists, then it is not the case that the universe can change states. B) The universe can change states. C) If the potential for the universe being in a different state is physical, then the potential for the universe being in a different state would be observable. D) If the potential for the universe being in a different state is observable, then the potential for the universe being in a different state would have qualities which can be scientifically observed. E) It is not the case that the potential for the universe being in a different state has qualities which can be scientifically observed. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- F) The potential for the universe being in a different state actually exists. (modus tollens A,B) G) It is not the case that the potential for the universe being in a different state is observable. (modus tollens D,E) H) It is not the case that the potential for the universe being in a different state is physical. (modus tollens C,G) I) The potential for the universe being in a different state actually exists, and it is not the case that the potential for the universe being in a different state is physical. (conjunction introduction F,H) =========================================================================================================================================================== >> Morality: Principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior. > Well, as above: How would you define "right", "wrong", "good", and "bad" (in this context)? Right/Good behavior is an act which is in accordance with what God wills. Wrong/Bad behavior is and act which is not in accordance with what God wills.

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago

> You're not distinguishing between propositions and sentences. Because it is not a useful distinction for the topic at hand. Propositions are in the same category as sentences, as far as their dependency on representation is concerned. Take a random proposition that you think would have evaluated to true in the past, before humans existed, if an entity capable of evaluating the proposition had been around. Now, subtract from the concept that you have in your mind everything that is simply the (physical) world as it is (i.e., the "testable"/empirical aspects referenced by the proposition). What do you have left that could be considered to exist in any meaningful sense, absent a (physical) representation expressing the abstraction? > What evidence do you have that establishes this as true? You are shifting the burden of proof. If you think that that is a reliable method, that is up to you to demonstrate. If you prefer, I'll rephrase to "It has not been demonstrated that you can use the testable patterns to demonstrate the existence of untestable abstract ideas." > To have objective reality or being. And how would you define "objective reality" and "being"? Those seem to me more like synonyms than definitions!? > I did not define "potential" as "possible", I defined it as "possible state". So ... where you wrote "potential state", you meant "possible state state"?! > I did not say "a state can not be actual and potential at the same time", I said "Potential states of the universe are not actual and potential at the same time". Except the latter implies the former? When I resolve your definitions, your statement reads "possible states of the universe are not current and possible at the same time". Or more formally: For any state that is possible, the state must also be either not current or not possible at any given time. A state that is possible obviously can not be not possible. Thus, to fulfill this condition, a state that is possible has to be not current (i.e., if a state is possible, that implies that it is not current). From that it follows that a state that is current hast to be not possible (i.e., if a state is current, that implies that it is not possible). Or in other words: a state can not be current and possible at the same time. What did I miss? > Morality: Principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior. Well, as above: How would you define "right", "wrong", "good", and "bad" (in this context)?

sonusario 8y ago
> Propositions are in the same category as sentences, as far as their dependency on representation is concerned. What evidence do you have of this being the case? Think about what it would mean for the truth of "Snow is white" if it was dependent upon how it was represented. If you can represent something in more than one way, then that thing is not dependent upon its representation. > Take a random proposition that you think would have evaluated to true in the past, before humans existed, if an entity capable of evaluating the proposition had been around. Now, subtract from the concept that you have in your mind everything that is simply the (physical) world as it is (i.e., the "testable"/empirical aspects referenced by the proposition). What do you have left that could be considered to exist in any meaningful sense, absent a (physical) representation expressing the abstraction? You would have nothing, but you removed the physical world and have removed the propositions that go along with that world. The proposition "Snow is white" depends on the existence of snow being white, and it does not depend on the sentence "Snow is white". That being said, the proposition "1 < 2" does not depend on anything physical. So you can removed all physical things, and "1 < 2" will still be true under the Peano axioms. >> What evidence do you have that establishes this as true? > "It has not been demonstrated that you can use the testable patterns to demonstrate the existence of untestable abstract ideas." Not to be a burden, but to respond to your question could you give me a refresh: What are you considering to be a testable pattern? What are you considering to be an untestable abstract idea? >> To have objective reality or being. > And how would you define "objective reality" and "being"? Objective reality: not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts regarding the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them. > Those seem to me more like synonyms than definitions!? Uhh... the composition of words in a definition is synonymous with what they are defining. If you only use one word to define something, then that word is a synonym... I don't understand the point of this complaint. If you think the definition is wrong or obscure then please state why. Perhaps you don't like the definition because you are trying to find something that implies physicality? I got the definition straight from google... Is there some other dictionary you'd like to suggest? >> I did not define "potential" as "possible", I defined it as "possible state". > So ... where you wrote "potential state", you meant "possible state state"?! ... Or in other words: a state can not be current and possible at the same time. What did I miss? Oof, cleaning up it is... let's start from scratch (the "same time" stuff has been removed as I am acknowledging that it made no sense): (Potential = possibility; actually = currently) =========================================================================================================================================================== A) If it is not the case that the potential for the universe being in a different state actually exists, then it is not the case that the universe can change states. B) The universe can change states. C) If the potential for the universe being in a different state is physical, then the potential for the universe being in a different state would be observable. D) If the potential for the universe being in a different state is observable, then the potential for the universe being in a different state would have qualities which can be scientifically observed. E) It is not the case that the potential for the universe being in a different state has qualities which can be scientifically observed. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- F) The potential for the universe being in a different state actually exists. (modus tollens A,B) G) It is not the case that the potential for the universe being in a different state is observable. (modus tollens D,E) H) It is not the case that the potential for the universe being in a different state is physical. (modus tollens C,G) I) The potential for the universe being in a different state actually exists, and it is not the case that the potential for the universe being in a different state is physical. (conjunction introduction F,H) =========================================================================================================================================================== >> Morality: Principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior. > Well, as above: How would you define "right", "wrong", "good", and "bad" (in this context)? Right/Good behavior is an act which is in accordance with what God wills. Wrong/Bad behavior is and act which is not in accordance with what God wills.