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No, it makes zero sense. My grandfather had advanced Parkinson's, but had zero intention of dying to it or its cornucopia of related symptoms/effects. So what

No, it makes zero sense. My grandfather had advanced Parkinson's, but had zero intention of dying to it or its cornucopia of related symptoms/effects. So what if he has a major disease that made life many orders of magnitude worse for him? Life is still life, and death is still infinitely worse. Giving up and accepting death may seem reasonable to some, but not for me or my grandfather. There's always a root cause, and there's always a way to keep going. Giving up is suicide.

jdietrich 8y ago
>Life is still life, and death is still infinitely worse. I assure you that this is untrue. There's a reason why people on the upper floors of the World Trade Center jumped from the windows, and it's not because they expected a soft landing. There are many, many things in this world worse than a peaceful death.
- diminoten 8y ago
  I assure you it is not untrue. People failing to realize a truth doesn't make it less true. Peaceful death is suicide, if chosen. Period.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - chmod775 8y ago
    > Peaceful death is suicide, if chosen. Period. Then suicide is preferable. Stop using the word suicide as if it was an insult.
    - diminoten 8y ago
      Picking suicide is a cop-out. Anything is better than nothingness.
      - monodeldiablo 8y ago
        That's your opinion. No matter how absolute you phrase it, it's not a fact. And I've seen enough suffering and death to know that not everybody shares your opinion. I've seen people who, when they were healthy, held opinions just like yours beg for death when their time had come. Count your blessings that you've not known pain, fear, or panic like the dying do.
        diminoten 8y ago
        It's not my opinion, it's objective fact; after death there is literally nothingness forever, and even excruciating pain is something; you can react to it, decide things about it, etc. Those are facts. Also you know absolutely nothing about me. Don't pretend like you do.
        kzzzznot 8y ago
        You sound very sure and angry about all these things. What's really bothering you?
        diminoten 8y ago
        I am sure, I'm not angry, and nothing at all is bothering me. Why ask such a personal question that's completely off topic, though?
        monodeldiablo 8y ago
        > Life is still life, and death is still infinitely worse. ^^ That's an opinion, phrased as if it was a fact. It's a value judgement and nothing more. I respect that it's your opinion, but just because you fervently believe it doesn't make it objectively true. If you wish to engage in a meaningful and productive conversation, you'll need to be more honest about separating your opinions from fact. I think that, underneath all the shouting, you have a very interesting take on the issue. I'd like to discuss it. But it's drowned out by your inability to recognize that other people can have a different -- and equally valid -- interpretation of what "quality of life" means. (Also, no: You cannot "decide things" about excruciating pain. It takes over a person's ability to reason. Chronic, debilitating pain very much robs a person of their agency.)
- asveikau 8y ago
  I feel like that is a crappy example to shove in people's faces. I guarantee you there is a nonzero amount of people who did that on 9/11 who could have made it down safely and enjoyed the rest of their lives. Actually it's a perfect example of the other kind of suicide, not due to permanent illness so much as temporary circumstances that could be resolved and lead to the person not wanting to do that. That is something for which friends, family, and medical professionals ought to intervene.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - asveikau 8y ago
    If you down voted this please explain your position to enlighten others. Otherwise I am just going to assume you did so out of poor life experience. Suicidal people often need and can use help, after which they can return to not being suicidal. Gp's 9/11 reference was also kind of nonsensical, and I say that as someone who was in the DC area at that time.
    - jdietrich 8y ago
      The North Tower of the World Trade Center was engulfed in flames above the 93rd floor and suffered severe structural damage, cutting off all possible routes of escape. At least 1,300 people were trapped above this point; none of them survived. Even if the towers had not collapsed, these people would almost certainly have died from smoke inhalation due to the difficulty of firefighting and the impossibility of rescue. The South Tower was struck more obliquely leaving one intact stairwell, but this was difficult to locate and descend due to the huge quantities of thick, black, choking smoke. At least 600 people were unable to find an escape route before the tower collapsed. Most of these people would have likely died of smoke inhalation if the tower had not collapsed. My reference to 9/11 was, in my opinion, entirely apposite. On that day, nearly 2,000 people were faced with no choice other than the manner of their death. Around 200 people chose to jump. https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-09-02-jumper_x.htm https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-09-02-jumpe...
jd75 8y ago
My grandma had cancer. A doctor had ignored her complaining of throat pain for too long, and it didn't look good. The doctor who told us chemo was an option was pushing my grandma really hard to just go ahead and die instead of trying chemo. It was horrible, and I hate the attitude that people shouldn't try so hard to stay alive. My grandma tried the chemo. She did die anyway, which I'm sure some folks will see as a reason that she never should have tried.
- icebraining 8y ago
  Would it be OK if your gradma had decided against chemo and the doctor was pushing her really hard to take it? Doctors bullying patients seems like a problem regardless of the direction they're pushing them.
pdonis 8y ago
>Life is still life, and death is still infinitely worse. And if that's truly your choice, you can choose it. In fact, as the article makes clear, your choice is the default one as things are now. But you should understand that other people's choice might be different from yours, and you don't have to right to insist that they get your preferred treatment if they don't want it. > there's always a way to keep going. Did your grandfather die? I'm assuming he did, since you don't refer to him in the present tense. If so, doesn't that falsify this statement?

jdietrich 8y ago

>Life is still life, and death is still infinitely worse. I assure you that this is untrue. There's a reason why people on the upper floors of the World Trade Center jumped from the windows, and it's not because they expected a soft landing. There are many, many things in this world worse than a peaceful death.

diminoten 8y ago
I assure you it is not untrue. People failing to realize a truth doesn't make it less true. Peaceful death is suicide, if chosen. Period.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- chmod775 8y ago
  > Peaceful death is suicide, if chosen. Period. Then suicide is preferable. Stop using the word suicide as if it was an insult.
  - diminoten 8y ago
    Picking suicide is a cop-out. Anything is better than nothingness.
    - monodeldiablo 8y ago
      That's your opinion. No matter how absolute you phrase it, it's not a fact. And I've seen enough suffering and death to know that not everybody shares your opinion. I've seen people who, when they were healthy, held opinions just like yours beg for death when their time had come. Count your blessings that you've not known pain, fear, or panic like the dying do.
      - diminoten 8y ago
        It's not my opinion, it's objective fact; after death there is literally nothingness forever, and even excruciating pain is something; you can react to it, decide things about it, etc. Those are facts. Also you know absolutely nothing about me. Don't pretend like you do.
        kzzzznot 8y ago
        You sound very sure and angry about all these things. What's really bothering you?
        diminoten 8y ago
        I am sure, I'm not angry, and nothing at all is bothering me. Why ask such a personal question that's completely off topic, though?
        monodeldiablo 8y ago
        > Life is still life, and death is still infinitely worse. ^^ That's an opinion, phrased as if it was a fact. It's a value judgement and nothing more. I respect that it's your opinion, but just because you fervently believe it doesn't make it objectively true. If you wish to engage in a meaningful and productive conversation, you'll need to be more honest about separating your opinions from fact. I think that, underneath all the shouting, you have a very interesting take on the issue. I'd like to discuss it. But it's drowned out by your inability to recognize that other people can have a different -- and equally valid -- interpretation of what "quality of life" means. (Also, no: You cannot "decide things" about excruciating pain. It takes over a person's ability to reason. Chronic, debilitating pain very much robs a person of their agency.)
asveikau 8y ago
I feel like that is a crappy example to shove in people's faces. I guarantee you there is a nonzero amount of people who did that on 9/11 who could have made it down safely and enjoyed the rest of their lives. Actually it's a perfect example of the other kind of suicide, not due to permanent illness so much as temporary circumstances that could be resolved and lead to the person not wanting to do that. That is something for which friends, family, and medical professionals ought to intervene.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- asveikau 8y ago
  If you down voted this please explain your position to enlighten others. Otherwise I am just going to assume you did so out of poor life experience. Suicidal people often need and can use help, after which they can return to not being suicidal. Gp's 9/11 reference was also kind of nonsensical, and I say that as someone who was in the DC area at that time.
  - jdietrich 8y ago
    The North Tower of the World Trade Center was engulfed in flames above the 93rd floor and suffered severe structural damage, cutting off all possible routes of escape. At least 1,300 people were trapped above this point; none of them survived. Even if the towers had not collapsed, these people would almost certainly have died from smoke inhalation due to the difficulty of firefighting and the impossibility of rescue. The South Tower was struck more obliquely leaving one intact stairwell, but this was difficult to locate and descend due to the huge quantities of thick, black, choking smoke. At least 600 people were unable to find an escape route before the tower collapsed. Most of these people would have likely died of smoke inhalation if the tower had not collapsed. My reference to 9/11 was, in my opinion, entirely apposite. On that day, nearly 2,000 people were faced with no choice other than the manner of their death. Around 200 people chose to jump. https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-09-02-jumper_x.htm https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-09-02-jumpe...

jd75 8y ago

My grandma had cancer. A doctor had ignored her complaining of throat pain for too long, and it didn't look good. The doctor who told us chemo was an option was pushing my grandma really hard to just go ahead and die instead of trying chemo. It was horrible, and I hate the attitude that people shouldn't try so hard to stay alive. My grandma tried the chemo. She did die anyway, which I'm sure some folks will see as a reason that she never should have tried.

icebraining 8y ago
Would it be OK if your gradma had decided against chemo and the doctor was pushing her really hard to take it? Doctors bullying patients seems like a problem regardless of the direction they're pushing them.

pdonis 8y ago

>Life is still life, and death is still infinitely worse. And if that's truly your choice, you can choose it. In fact, as the article makes clear, your choice is the default one as things are now. But you should understand that other people's choice might be different from yours, and you don't have to right to insist that they get your preferred treatment if they don't want it. > there's always a way to keep going. Did your grandfather die? I'm assuming he did, since you don't refer to him in the present tense. If so, doesn't that falsify this statement?