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> seems to me like it's a cultural thing as well. This is true. I think that it's also a religious thing as well, and almost Christians. Other religions are mo

> seems to me like it's a cultural thing as well. This is true. I think that it's also a religious thing as well, and almost Christians. Other religions are more accepting of death, but Christianity has taught many to sincerely believe that Jesus himself would step into the room and heal their loved one, therefore every attempt must be made to save them. This is something I've seen first hand in my years as a Paramedic. Patients with absolutely zero quality of life, yet remain a full code, in a nursing home. Family hasn't visited them in months (maybe coming 2-3 times a year tops) but there's evidence of a direct deposited social security or retirement check going somewhere. It's sad and I wish that we had a huge cultural shift regarding end of life care.

hnuser355 8y ago
I believe this might be more prominent among uneducated folks of (at least in my neck of the woods) non-mainline American Protestant denominations. At least the doctors of the Catholic Church will specifically talk about preparation for death, dying well (also mentioned by Fred Rogers in the documentary I saw about him), etc.
- ljm 8y ago
  More simply, it's not easy to let go of someone you love and say goodbye to them. It's not fair to the person ready to die, but there's a lot of pressure put on people (through TV, movies, friends) to fight for those you love, even when they don't want you to.
- jrnichols 8y ago
  I can't disagree with that. As a whole, I think that Americans are woefully unprepared for end of life care. I encourage people to have an advance directive on file.
- philwelch 8y ago
  Catholics tend to be on the “full code” end of the spectrum; part of the whole “culture of life” thing.
mikeash 8y ago
It’s really strange to me. Christianity also teaches that death is temporary and you’ll be reunited with your loved ones (assuming everyone is righteous). Why such a fear of death?
- adriand 8y ago
  I grew up in a conservative, Protestant family and I might be able to shed a little bit of light on this. A few points, simply based on the environment I grew up in, which means of course this is just one perspective on just one religious denomination - I won't provide more caveats than that: - Christians take the afterlife very seriously. One must be judged by God. Regardless of how confident you are in your final destination, the prospect of being called to account for your actions in front of an omnipotent being is not something they take lightly. - Protestant Christianity teaches that one must be "saved", that is, accept Jesus Christ and have a profound spiritual experience and subsequent spiritual connection with God. Many Christians are honest people who may not have had such an experience and are aware of this fact, which naturally creates fear when the end of life approaches. In other words, they may have doubts about whether or not they are indeed saved. The alternative to being saved of course, is spending an eternity in hell. As you might imagine, this can be nerve-wracking. - Christians believe that whether or not someone ought to live or die is in God's hands. They take the view that whatever humans ought to do to extend life ought to be done, since death will come when God wills it. Choosing to stop life support is tantamount to choosing to end someone's life, a power they believe only God wields righteously. - Lastly, regardless of one's personal or religious beliefs, death is scary. I think the appropriate reaction to a Christian (or any other religious person) who is terrified that they, or their loved one, may die, is not observing that this fear may be incompatible with their professed beliefs. The appropriate reaction is compassion. Note: I'm an atheist, so telling me that all or part of the above is irrational is...uh...preaching to the choir.
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    > Christians believe that whether or not someone ought to live or die is in God's hands. They take the view that whatever humans ought to do to extend life ought to be done, since death will come when God wills it. Choosing to stop life support is tantamount to choosing to end someone's life, a power they believe only God wields righteously. On the flip side, couldn’t life support be considered thwarting God’s will?
robbiep 8y ago
In my experience with Muslim families, they have often been the hardest families to deal with (exactly as you describe for Christian families) because they adamantly demand absolutely every measure to be taken
thucydidesofusa 8y ago
You don't spend much time around Muslims do you? The lengths they go to make Evangelicals seem sensible. It's not really a Christian thing, Catholics, Amish, and Mormons are pretty mature about dying.
learc83 8y ago
>This is true. I think that it's also a religious thing as well, and almost Christians. Other religions are more accepting of death. In my own experience growing up in church as a pastor's kid and attending a lot of funerals, people at Christian funerals tend to be a lot more accepting/less obviously distressed than people at non-religious memorial services. I think what you're describing has more to do with the American scientific optimism of the 50s and 60s and it's left over impact on American culture than it does with any particularly religion. My parents generation truly believed that cancer, heart disease, and many other common ailments would be cured by the time they were old.
- mustacheemperor 8y ago
  >American scientific optimism of the 50s and 60s Sam Altman says he “fully expects” his brain to be uploaded to the cloud someday[0]. Is it any different this time, or do humans always delude ourselves about our mortality? [0]https://www.technologyreview.com/s/610456/a-startup-is-pitching-a-mind-uploading-service-that-is-100-percent-fatal/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/610456/a-startup-is-pitch...
  - learc83 8y ago
    I think it's cyclical, and it's a matter of degree. I don't think very many people today believe that they will be able to upload their brains.
    - BigJono 8y ago
      I wonder how many of us believe that heart disease and cancer will be gone by the time we're old?
  - jnurmine 8y ago
    It is simply a modern version of "afterlife", expressed in modern terms, but nevertheless the same idea.
hopler 8y ago
That's a bizarre bigotry. Christianity teaches of heaven and the second coming, and also that Jesus heals regardless of doctors. There is a huge diversity in Christianity. How do you as a paramedic know what's happening to a patient's social security check?
- jrnichols 8y ago
  When a family member actually says "If she dies, we aren't getting paid anymore." I've also talked to nurses who have approached the topic of hospice with family members, and there is an undeniable financial incentive in many cases.
  - Thorrez 8y ago
    And that only happens among Christians? Atheists and Muslims aren't motivated by money?
    - jrnichols 8y ago
      Did I say anything at all to insinuate that? No. The death of a family member can change the entire family dynamic, and greed is a powerful emotion that knows no political or religious boundaries.
      - JshWright 8y ago
        I mean... yeah? You specifically called out Christians, then you described this behavior. That certainly falls into the category of "insinuating" in my opinion.
bartread 8y ago
> This is true. I think that it's also a religious thing as well, and almost Christians. Other religions are more accepting of death, but Christianity has taught many to sincerely believe that Jesus himself would step into the room and heal their loved one, therefore every attempt must be made to save them. Nope. Everybody dies, with rare exception: the Bible is pretty unequivocal on that. I hate to drift so close to playing an SJW card and I'm not saying what you've described never happens, but please don't tar us all with the same brush and, instead, educate yourself.
- jrnichols 8y ago
  This has been my own experience over the years, and if you'll please take the time to re-read what I said, you'll see I said "many" and not all. There are going to be differences, of course. Think back to the Terri Schiavo case. While she was apparently Catholic, the sentiment was the same. Her family believed that she was going to be healed by God (or Jesus, either one) and would make a full recovery. I also think that years of medical dramas on television have given many many people (again, not everyone...) unrealistic expectations of medicine.
  - jawns 8y ago
    Her family did believe that she had more than a nonzero chance of some level of recovery, but that was not why they did not want her to be starved to death by having her feeding tube removed. Though they held out hope, they acknowledged that she might never get better. Their objection to withdrawing her feeding tube was not because they considered it wrong to do to a person who might recover but because they considered it wrong to do to a person. That does not mean that they considered every life support measure to be necessary. It just means that they considered the denial of food and water to be different than something like turning off a ventilator.
  - learc83 8y ago
    >Think back to the Terri Schiavo case. While she was apparently Catholic, the sentiment was the same. Her family believed that she was going to be healed by God (or Jesus, either one) and would make a full recovery. That's a mischaracterization of what happened. They had several arguments. 1. They believed that she wasn't actually in a persistent vegetative state, but that she was still conscious and could understand what was said to her and display emotions. They even found doctors (who were probably wrong, but they still had validation) to agree with their theory. 2. They believed that her husband wanted her to die so that he could get remarried while still inheriting her estate. 3. They didn't believe her husband when he said that she wouldn’t want to be kept alive via feeding tube. They believed that since she was a devout Roman Catholic she would have seen denying nutrition as euthanasia even though she might not want to be kept alive via a ventilator. This is the main religious argument made at the time, and it’s more of an argument about her wishes than a religious argument. 4. They found doctors who told them that there was a chance of improvement through experimental procedures. They also seem to have made money since then by taking a salary to run a foundation in her name. It seems like either they were just parents who didn't accept that their daughter was in a persistent vegetative state, they believed the doctors who told them that their was small chance of improvement, they were trying to make money, they really hated their son-in-law, or some combination of all 4. It didn’t seem to have anything to do with them thinking that God was going miraculously heal their daughter. It’s definitely not evidence of wide scale Christian refusal to accept death.
TheKarateKid 8y ago
> Christianity has taught many to sincerely believe that Jesus himself would step into the room and heal their loved one, therefore every attempt must be made to save them. This is a completely unsensitive and arrogant comment. Replace 'Christianity' with 'Muslim' or 'Jewish' and see if you still would've pressed the submit button. Further, as a Catholic who has many friends and family of different forms of Christianity, your opinion-stated-as-fact is not accurate in the slightest.

hnuser355 8y ago

I believe this might be more prominent among uneducated folks of (at least in my neck of the woods) non-mainline American Protestant denominations. At least the doctors of the Catholic Church will specifically talk about preparation for death, dying well (also mentioned by Fred Rogers in the documentary I saw about him), etc.

ljm 8y ago
More simply, it's not easy to let go of someone you love and say goodbye to them. It's not fair to the person ready to die, but there's a lot of pressure put on people (through TV, movies, friends) to fight for those you love, even when they don't want you to.
jrnichols 8y ago
I can't disagree with that. As a whole, I think that Americans are woefully unprepared for end of life care. I encourage people to have an advance directive on file.
philwelch 8y ago
Catholics tend to be on the “full code” end of the spectrum; part of the whole “culture of life” thing.

mikeash 8y ago

It’s really strange to me. Christianity also teaches that death is temporary and you’ll be reunited with your loved ones (assuming everyone is righteous). Why such a fear of death?

adriand 8y ago
I grew up in a conservative, Protestant family and I might be able to shed a little bit of light on this. A few points, simply based on the environment I grew up in, which means of course this is just one perspective on just one religious denomination - I won't provide more caveats than that: - Christians take the afterlife very seriously. One must be judged by God. Regardless of how confident you are in your final destination, the prospect of being called to account for your actions in front of an omnipotent being is not something they take lightly. - Protestant Christianity teaches that one must be "saved", that is, accept Jesus Christ and have a profound spiritual experience and subsequent spiritual connection with God. Many Christians are honest people who may not have had such an experience and are aware of this fact, which naturally creates fear when the end of life approaches. In other words, they may have doubts about whether or not they are indeed saved. The alternative to being saved of course, is spending an eternity in hell. As you might imagine, this can be nerve-wracking. - Christians believe that whether or not someone ought to live or die is in God's hands. They take the view that whatever humans ought to do to extend life ought to be done, since death will come when God wills it. Choosing to stop life support is tantamount to choosing to end someone's life, a power they believe only God wields righteously. - Lastly, regardless of one's personal or religious beliefs, death is scary. I think the appropriate reaction to a Christian (or any other religious person) who is terrified that they, or their loved one, may die, is not observing that this fear may be incompatible with their professed beliefs. The appropriate reaction is compassion. Note: I'm an atheist, so telling me that all or part of the above is irrational is...uh...preaching to the choir.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  > Christians believe that whether or not someone ought to live or die is in God's hands. They take the view that whatever humans ought to do to extend life ought to be done, since death will come when God wills it. Choosing to stop life support is tantamount to choosing to end someone's life, a power they believe only God wields righteously. On the flip side, couldn’t life support be considered thwarting God’s will?

robbiep 8y ago

In my experience with Muslim families, they have often been the hardest families to deal with (exactly as you describe for Christian families) because they adamantly demand absolutely every measure to be taken

thucydidesofusa 8y ago

You don't spend much time around Muslims do you? The lengths they go to make Evangelicals seem sensible. It's not really a Christian thing, Catholics, Amish, and Mormons are pretty mature about dying.

learc83 8y ago

>This is true. I think that it's also a religious thing as well, and almost Christians. Other religions are more accepting of death. In my own experience growing up in church as a pastor's kid and attending a lot of funerals, people at Christian funerals tend to be a lot more accepting/less obviously distressed than people at non-religious memorial services. I think what you're describing has more to do with the American scientific optimism of the 50s and 60s and it's left over impact on American culture than it does with any particularly religion. My parents generation truly believed that cancer, heart disease, and many other common ailments would be cured by the time they were old.

mustacheemperor 8y ago
>American scientific optimism of the 50s and 60s Sam Altman says he “fully expects” his brain to be uploaded to the cloud someday[0]. Is it any different this time, or do humans always delude ourselves about our mortality? [0]https://www.technologyreview.com/s/610456/a-startup-is-pitching-a-mind-uploading-service-that-is-100-percent-fatal/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/610456/a-startup-is-pitch...
- learc83 8y ago
  I think it's cyclical, and it's a matter of degree. I don't think very many people today believe that they will be able to upload their brains.
  - BigJono 8y ago
    I wonder how many of us believe that heart disease and cancer will be gone by the time we're old?
- jnurmine 8y ago
  It is simply a modern version of "afterlife", expressed in modern terms, but nevertheless the same idea.

hopler 8y ago

That's a bizarre bigotry. Christianity teaches of heaven and the second coming, and also that Jesus heals regardless of doctors. There is a huge diversity in Christianity. How do you as a paramedic know what's happening to a patient's social security check?

jrnichols 8y ago
When a family member actually says "If she dies, we aren't getting paid anymore." I've also talked to nurses who have approached the topic of hospice with family members, and there is an undeniable financial incentive in many cases.
- Thorrez 8y ago
  And that only happens among Christians? Atheists and Muslims aren't motivated by money?
  - jrnichols 8y ago
    Did I say anything at all to insinuate that? No. The death of a family member can change the entire family dynamic, and greed is a powerful emotion that knows no political or religious boundaries.
    - JshWright 8y ago
      I mean... yeah? You specifically called out Christians, then you described this behavior. That certainly falls into the category of "insinuating" in my opinion.

bartread 8y ago

> This is true. I think that it's also a religious thing as well, and almost Christians. Other religions are more accepting of death, but Christianity has taught many to sincerely believe that Jesus himself would step into the room and heal their loved one, therefore every attempt must be made to save them. Nope. Everybody dies, with rare exception: the Bible is pretty unequivocal on that. I hate to drift so close to playing an SJW card and I'm not saying what you've described never happens, but please don't tar us all with the same brush and, instead, educate yourself.

jrnichols 8y ago
This has been my own experience over the years, and if you'll please take the time to re-read what I said, you'll see I said "many" and not all. There are going to be differences, of course. Think back to the Terri Schiavo case. While she was apparently Catholic, the sentiment was the same. Her family believed that she was going to be healed by God (or Jesus, either one) and would make a full recovery. I also think that years of medical dramas on television have given many many people (again, not everyone...) unrealistic expectations of medicine.
- jawns 8y ago
  Her family did believe that she had more than a nonzero chance of some level of recovery, but that was not why they did not want her to be starved to death by having her feeding tube removed. Though they held out hope, they acknowledged that she might never get better. Their objection to withdrawing her feeding tube was not because they considered it wrong to do to a person who might recover but because they considered it wrong to do to a person. That does not mean that they considered every life support measure to be necessary. It just means that they considered the denial of food and water to be different than something like turning off a ventilator.
- learc83 8y ago
  >Think back to the Terri Schiavo case. While she was apparently Catholic, the sentiment was the same. Her family believed that she was going to be healed by God (or Jesus, either one) and would make a full recovery. That's a mischaracterization of what happened. They had several arguments. 1. They believed that she wasn't actually in a persistent vegetative state, but that she was still conscious and could understand what was said to her and display emotions. They even found doctors (who were probably wrong, but they still had validation) to agree with their theory. 2. They believed that her husband wanted her to die so that he could get remarried while still inheriting her estate. 3. They didn't believe her husband when he said that she wouldn’t want to be kept alive via feeding tube. They believed that since she was a devout Roman Catholic she would have seen denying nutrition as euthanasia even though she might not want to be kept alive via a ventilator. This is the main religious argument made at the time, and it’s more of an argument about her wishes than a religious argument. 4. They found doctors who told them that there was a chance of improvement through experimental procedures. They also seem to have made money since then by taking a salary to run a foundation in her name. It seems like either they were just parents who didn't accept that their daughter was in a persistent vegetative state, they believed the doctors who told them that their was small chance of improvement, they were trying to make money, they really hated their son-in-law, or some combination of all 4. It didn’t seem to have anything to do with them thinking that God was going miraculously heal their daughter. It’s definitely not evidence of wide scale Christian refusal to accept death.

TheKarateKid 8y ago

> Christianity has taught many to sincerely believe that Jesus himself would step into the room and heal their loved one, therefore every attempt must be made to save them. This is a completely unsensitive and arrogant comment. Replace 'Christianity' with 'Muslim' or 'Jewish' and see if you still would've pressed the submit button. Further, as a Catholic who has many friends and family of different forms of Christianity, your opinion-stated-as-fact is not accurate in the slightest.