4 ms·

To me this is a story of immigration. Europe is currently 'struggling' with immigration, the subtext being they don't bring skills, lower wages for the poorest

To me this is a story of immigration. Europe is currently 'struggling' with immigration, the subtext being they don't bring skills, lower wages for the poorest, etc. Here you have an immigrant that brings massive wealth to a country, (and he's essentially a healthcare tourist!)

ThJ 8y ago
The United States is in the privileged position of attracting the best and the brightest. Also, it, together with the rest of the anglosphere, attracts the people who speak English. Many of the people who come to countries like Norway, France and the Netherlands are less resourceful, mostly poor refugees. They didn't receive an education in any western language, so it doesn't matter which country they pick, so long as it's safe and there is money there.
- benj111 8y ago
  I'm British, and there's the same fears here, perhaps more so. So I'm not sure it's an english speaking thing. And looking at how Trump is behaving over the Mexican border, the US has the same fears also. But yes the US probably does do better at attracting the most talented, certainly in the tech industry.
- njepa 8y ago
  > They didn't receive an education in any western language, so it doesn't matter which country they pick, so long as it's safe and there is money there. I wouldn't say so. While of course it is hard to be informed as a refugee, the big European countries are naturally much more well known. Refugees to some extent go to Nordic countries because they have heard that it is a place were you can get an apartment, a decent wage and there are resources so you can get on with your life. At this point they probably believe more in the Nordic model than we do ourselves.
raverbashing 8y ago
There's a difference in education levels and ability to integrate - even at later generations. As you mentioned it, it was a healthcare tourist, not an immigrant per se. There's no point in bringing people to do the low-level jobs without much room to grow (or worse, do what Canada does and be overly selective then just keep people at survival jobs)
etaty 8y ago
I think, you are missing half of the context. He is Iraqi, but his wife is Norwegian. They met in London, during his study. They have a child together, who need cares only available in Norway. In most countries this kind of immigration is doable (high skills and related to the country by marriage). Is it called immigration? Migrants moving to a country without having an initial link with that country is a more complex problem.
- GordonS 8y ago
  I thought immigration wasn't possible in most countries if you have dependants with considerable healthcare needs?
- benj111 8y ago
  Agreed. I don't really think that nuance really enters into the debate though. So surely that can work both ways. If we paint all immigrants as skill-less criminals, than we can also lump this guy in with them, to show the other side. My intent was to show this as immigration as a success, rather than immigration as job stealing, so often portrayed in the media.
- NullPrefix 8y ago
  The word you're looking for is expat.
thefounder 8y ago
This guy had skills and good education though. Unskilled people most likely become criminals and/or never integrate into society unless the government makes a huge effort for their integration. Most of the immigrants(at leat those comming over the Mediterranean sea) have been young male with no education. Unfortunately many European countries are not willing or are just not able to commit the effort required to make unskilled immigrants good european citizens. I don't understand why the EU leaders didn't emphasis the skills requirement more and instead started stupid arguments about religion and culture.
- sheeshkebab 8y ago
  It’s hard to prove anyone’s credentials when they are fleeing a war. if there is a chance that one person out of a thousand can be at this level, it’s pretty much a no brainer to let everyone in. borders are a really stupid way people isolate themselves out - it’s just a step above wild animals instinct.
  - thefounder 8y ago
    >> It’s hard to prove anyone’s credentials when they are fleeing a war. Not really. There could be simple tests to establish basic knowledge of their expertise. It doesn't need to be a hard test but it would stop the bulk of false applications. After all the scope is not to allow only the most skilled but to stop the peoole with low/no skills. >> if there is a chance that one person out of a thousand can be at this level, it’s pretty much a no brainer to let everyone in. I doubt that this guy would fail a 60 seconds interview with basic question about its expertise so there is no need to let everyone in. Why so you want to let everyone in? Do you expect a big economic return from unskilled immigrants? Is it a moral thing to do? Who would be affected by them? How do you compensante the people affected? I think there are some unanswered questions that need to be addressed before to let everyone in.
- andrepd 8y ago
  >Unskilled people most likely become criminals and/or never integrate into society unless the government makes a huge effort for their integration. This might be the immediate intuition, and also the perception that the huge media cknglomerates push, but this is NOT true! http://oxfordre.com/criminology/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780190264079.001.0001/acrefore-9780190264079-e-93 http://oxfordre.com/criminology/view/10.1093/acrefore/978019...
FartyMcFarter 8y ago
> (and he's essentially a healthcare tourist!) Not even a little bit. His wife is Norwegian, so presumably the son who needed healthcare also had Norwegian nationality. If anything he's an immigrant by marriage. The fact that he stayed in Norway for decades also disqualifies him from being called a "tourist".
mmsimanga 8y ago
As an immigrant I this is simplistic. I think there are some legitimate questions your host needs to ask off you without it being regarded as being anti immigration. Where are you going to live, do you speak the language, what skills do you have, do you believe that men and women are equal, do you believe bribing a cop is wrong, what is your attitude to paying tax... There are also questions that I think the world needs to focus on for example. Just why are so many of us jumping ship? Surely the whole of African continent cannot migrate to Europe. Something is wrong in some countries in Africa and some hard and unpleasant truths have to be acknowledged before we can start to fix anything.

ThJ 8y ago

The United States is in the privileged position of attracting the best and the brightest. Also, it, together with the rest of the anglosphere, attracts the people who speak English. Many of the people who come to countries like Norway, France and the Netherlands are less resourceful, mostly poor refugees. They didn't receive an education in any western language, so it doesn't matter which country they pick, so long as it's safe and there is money there.

benj111 8y ago
I'm British, and there's the same fears here, perhaps more so. So I'm not sure it's an english speaking thing. And looking at how Trump is behaving over the Mexican border, the US has the same fears also. But yes the US probably does do better at attracting the most talented, certainly in the tech industry.
njepa 8y ago
> They didn't receive an education in any western language, so it doesn't matter which country they pick, so long as it's safe and there is money there. I wouldn't say so. While of course it is hard to be informed as a refugee, the big European countries are naturally much more well known. Refugees to some extent go to Nordic countries because they have heard that it is a place were you can get an apartment, a decent wage and there are resources so you can get on with your life. At this point they probably believe more in the Nordic model than we do ourselves.

raverbashing 8y ago

There's a difference in education levels and ability to integrate - even at later generations. As you mentioned it, it was a healthcare tourist, not an immigrant per se. There's no point in bringing people to do the low-level jobs without much room to grow (or worse, do what Canada does and be overly selective then just keep people at survival jobs)

etaty 8y ago

I think, you are missing half of the context. He is Iraqi, but his wife is Norwegian. They met in London, during his study. They have a child together, who need cares only available in Norway. In most countries this kind of immigration is doable (high skills and related to the country by marriage). Is it called immigration? Migrants moving to a country without having an initial link with that country is a more complex problem.

GordonS 8y ago
I thought immigration wasn't possible in most countries if you have dependants with considerable healthcare needs?
benj111 8y ago
Agreed. I don't really think that nuance really enters into the debate though. So surely that can work both ways. If we paint all immigrants as skill-less criminals, than we can also lump this guy in with them, to show the other side. My intent was to show this as immigration as a success, rather than immigration as job stealing, so often portrayed in the media.
NullPrefix 8y ago
The word you're looking for is expat.

thefounder 8y ago

This guy had skills and good education though. Unskilled people most likely become criminals and/or never integrate into society unless the government makes a huge effort for their integration. Most of the immigrants(at leat those comming over the Mediterranean sea) have been young male with no education. Unfortunately many European countries are not willing or are just not able to commit the effort required to make unskilled immigrants good european citizens. I don't understand why the EU leaders didn't emphasis the skills requirement more and instead started stupid arguments about religion and culture.

sheeshkebab 8y ago
It’s hard to prove anyone’s credentials when they are fleeing a war. if there is a chance that one person out of a thousand can be at this level, it’s pretty much a no brainer to let everyone in. borders are a really stupid way people isolate themselves out - it’s just a step above wild animals instinct.
- thefounder 8y ago
  >> It’s hard to prove anyone’s credentials when they are fleeing a war. Not really. There could be simple tests to establish basic knowledge of their expertise. It doesn't need to be a hard test but it would stop the bulk of false applications. After all the scope is not to allow only the most skilled but to stop the peoole with low/no skills. >> if there is a chance that one person out of a thousand can be at this level, it’s pretty much a no brainer to let everyone in. I doubt that this guy would fail a 60 seconds interview with basic question about its expertise so there is no need to let everyone in. Why so you want to let everyone in? Do you expect a big economic return from unskilled immigrants? Is it a moral thing to do? Who would be affected by them? How do you compensante the people affected? I think there are some unanswered questions that need to be addressed before to let everyone in.
andrepd 8y ago
>Unskilled people most likely become criminals and/or never integrate into society unless the government makes a huge effort for their integration. This might be the immediate intuition, and also the perception that the huge media cknglomerates push, but this is NOT true! http://oxfordre.com/criminology/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780190264079.001.0001/acrefore-9780190264079-e-93 http://oxfordre.com/criminology/view/10.1093/acrefore/978019...

FartyMcFarter 8y ago

> (and he's essentially a healthcare tourist!) Not even a little bit. His wife is Norwegian, so presumably the son who needed healthcare also had Norwegian nationality. If anything he's an immigrant by marriage. The fact that he stayed in Norway for decades also disqualifies him from being called a "tourist".

mmsimanga 8y ago

As an immigrant I this is simplistic. I think there are some legitimate questions your host needs to ask off you without it being regarded as being anti immigration. Where are you going to live, do you speak the language, what skills do you have, do you believe that men and women are equal, do you believe bribing a cop is wrong, what is your attitude to paying tax... There are also questions that I think the world needs to focus on for example. Just why are so many of us jumping ship? Surely the whole of African continent cannot migrate to Europe. Something is wrong in some countries in Africa and some hard and unpleasant truths have to be acknowledged before we can start to fix anything.