7 ms·

> How it appears to me is that people have beliefs that they realize are either unpopular or controversial, and so they use the subreddit to learn what they "sh

> How it appears to me is that people have beliefs that they realize are either unpopular or controversial, and so they use the subreddit to learn what they "should" believe or at least a rationalization for ignoring their true beliefs. A large portion of Reddit in general (especially the front page and popular subreddits) is people making up stories/opinions/content created specifically to illicit as many replies and argument as possible, as that's what gets more votes and attention. It's a popularity contest, not a place for genuine discussion. You see it here too, to a lesser extent. You see it everywhere there's likes/upvotes tied to accounts. People compete for the high score. I still personally think forums were/are a better format for discussion. Just a flowing conversation where general activity in a thread bumps it up and not votes.

darkpuma 8y ago
Even the traditional PHP forum has all kinds of senseless 'flare' on each post. Post counts, signup dates, eye catching signatures, etc. A large portion of the screen space on your typical forum is still dedicated to attention seeking behavior. IRC is better. There is very little on screen besides the discussion itself. IRC nicks can be used to grab attention, but there are only a few characters to work with so usually it's just a bit quirky but not really distracting.
- MuffinFlavored 8y ago
  Let's make a web-browser-accessible persistent IRC with threads and no scores?
  - chipotle_coyote 8y ago
    I believe you've described a major chunk of Slack's business model.
    - MuffinFlavored 8y ago
      That's for team communication, not the same niche that reddit/Hacker News fill.
      - maxerickson 8y ago
        It's also used by "interest groups". OpenStreetMap-US has a slack with ~1400 people.
      - colordrops 8y ago
        Doesn't Discord fill the special interest group chat niche?
        MuffinFlavored 8y ago
        Chat, yes. I wouldn't call HackerNews just a chat. It's articles, then some chat in the comments. That wouldn't work well with Discord I don't think? The main goal of HackerNews (for me) is to load it up, scroll, consume posts from the day, contribute/collaborate/ask questions/ etc. Discord is more about being engaged in the conversation as it is happening
      - chipotle_coyote 8y ago
        No, but Slack arguably serves as a "web-browser-accessible persistent IRC with threads and no scores." I suspect what that describes wouldn't serve the same niche as Reddit/HN, either. It could, but the vibe would be very different.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - progval 8y ago
    IRCCloud. I'm not sure they have threads already, but they are close.
- phist_mcgee 8y ago
  And 4chan theoretically is better still, because the anonymity means posters are not rewarded at all for their contributions. Even the same poster, posting twice in the thread is not identifiable on most boards, allowing the discussion to be the primary focus. On the other hand, the culture of most *chans is to be abusive and confrontational, so who knows if it is any better.
  - darkpuma 8y ago
    In my experience 4chan has more attention seeking behavior than IRC (inline images facilitate it moreso than nicks), and on IRC users tend to be more friendly and aware of each other's humanity.
    - chx 8y ago
      > and on IRC users tend to be more friendly and aware of each other's humanity. I have been on IRC since 1993 but this is news to me.
      - michaelt 8y ago
        'Friendlier than 4chan' is a pretty low bar.
        chx 8y ago
        For sure but "aware of each other's humanity" is ... not something I'd call your typical IRC dweller.
  - newen 8y ago
    4chan style threads with account names might actually be better. You can have really good discussions in imageboards (in the smaller boards) because you don't have a bunch of non-participants butting in with their upvotes and downvotes. Even Metafilter with their very low key favorites "voting system" gives rise to a contest for getting the most favorites.
- tru3_power 8y ago
  Serious question here- but how do I go about finding irc channels for stuff I’m interested in? When I was younger I loved irc but my warez days are long gone and I literally have no idea where to start looking anymore.
  - rhizome 8y ago
    same way you find subreddits: hang out in one you like and people will invariably mention others.
  - maxerickson 8y ago
    Probably just check the major networks for active channels. There's not that many networks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Internet_Relay_Chat_networks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Internet_Relay_Chat_n... You can also go in the other direction, checking if the stuff you are interested in lists a channel (which I realize is sort of obvious, whatever).
  - darkpuma 8y ago
    I've always started from topics that I'm interested in, then look if there is an IRC channel.
- warent 8y ago
  This conversation reads like an xkcd strip. "Reddit style threads are the best." "Forums are ideal." "IRC is better." Half expecting this to progress to ARPANET or written letters.
  - tomcatfish 8y ago
    A la https://www.xkcd.com/378/ https://www.xkcd.com/378/ (Real Programmers) or https://www.xkcd.com/435/ https://www.xkcd.com/435/ (Purity). This seems to be a thing developer-type people struggle with a lot, and I really think it is an engineering mindset issue. We tend to like the things we have control over or understand completely, and technologies that have hidden parts (like Reddit or certain controversial programming languages) are disliked for their perceived dishonesty.
- Bahamut 8y ago
  IRC’s problem for deep conversations is that conversations in a chat medium are more ephemeral and that the shorter is better, not unlike Twitter, a format that exemplifies why shorter conversations do not give a great medium for longer/deeper conversations. With forums, posts aren’t generally deleted except by maybe an admin if someone has been violating rules, and due to the permanence, people generally spend more time thinking what what they post.
  - darkpuma 8y ago
    With forums you often get a topic that has 500 posts, 480 of which are pure "me too / works for me" noise. Those 500 posts are split into 50 pages of 10 posts each, and page one has the oldest posts. The post with the answer is on page 46 and the pages after that are just 30-40 comments thanking whoever came up with the answer. So if you jump straight to the end then start working backwards, you're looking at maybe 10 or so page loads before you actually find the answer you're looking for. Some forums aren't shit, but all of those cookie cutter PHP forums all seem to be shit.
    - nitrogen 8y ago
      And a fair number of those thanks and me too posts are actually SEO spam with a profile link to some other unrelated site...
    - canofbars 8y ago
      QA forums are trash and they were totally replaced by stack exchange but general talk forums are still quite good. Private torrent trackers always have forums attached and the quality is usually quite good because its very hard to get a new account if you get banned. From what I have seen, private forums are much more civil but its tough to actually build a community when its so much effort to join.
    - TeMPOraL 8y ago
      This is exactly why HN/Reddit format of tree-structured discussions is superior to linear phpBB forums. They allow for segregating subtopics (on a long forum thread, there are always subtopics and offtopics), letting you ignore the things that are not relevant to you. Were I setting up a discussion forum today, I'd immediately look for something halfway between HN and Reddit. Reddit itself is too much of a PITA to host (we tried in our Hackerspace, but didn't go too far); HN has too little markup and no built-in functionality for storing notifications about replies.
- ansible 8y ago
  > Even the traditional PHP forum has all kinds of senseless 'flare' on each post. Post counts, signup dates, eye catching signatures, etc. A large portion of the screen space on your typical forum is still dedicated to attention seeking behavior. This is what drives me up a wall with forums. All. The. Visual. Noise. So much crap that obfuscates what I really want to look at.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
nabla9 8y ago
Realistically signal/noise ratio of 0.05 to 0.01 is good enough in open forum comments. It's still possible to scan comments and find the signal from the noise. Usenet was incredible before the eternal September. There was noise, trolls, flame wars and mentally instable people and good and bad moderation decisions, but the good was really good. Party due to the higher quality of the users and from the inability to make money from it. Top people were reading and lurking in relevant newsgroups and commented sometimes or sent private comment via email. HN has two things common with Usenet, good moderation and higher than average users. What has changed is the motives. There are many users who are self promoting or marketing with pseudo-informative submissions. They push blog posts that are just written to increase visibility and "what I experienced when doing business", many of those stories made up. With all this negative stuff, HN has still good singal/noise ratio and you can learn from comments and discussions.
- vasili111 8y ago
  Do you know other such high quality comment places as hacker news or early Usernet?
  - colejohnson66 8y ago
    Lobsters, I’d presume, but it’s invite only
    - eitland 8y ago
      Ask for an invite. That's how I got my account there. Be ready to supply an email address and be aware that at least some of thise who sends invites dig through posting history before sending an invite. Also note that posting and commenting guidelines might be experienced as somewhat stricter than here.
onorton 8y ago
I definitely agree with this too. Even imageboards like 4chan, in the smaller boards at least, you can get a decent discussion as there is no concept of upvotes nor automatic hiding of posts and replies are always in chronological order. The only main difference between them and a traditional forum is anonymity.
- mrguyorama 8y ago
  Back before the far right started getting really bad in the US (2004-2008ish) I even enjoyed /b/ on 4chan. There were several experiments that would be run on the board, with one eliminating IDs even within individual threads. The effect is that, every idea and comment is judged as-is, with no BS authority. Granted, still being in general a cesspool, and only a few years past its childporn heydays, often very negative ideas are given honest support. But in the end, everything expires after a few hours anyway, no matter how popular, which I always thought was the true value of 4chan

darkpuma 8y ago

Even the traditional PHP forum has all kinds of senseless 'flare' on each post. Post counts, signup dates, eye catching signatures, etc. A large portion of the screen space on your typical forum is still dedicated to attention seeking behavior. IRC is better. There is very little on screen besides the discussion itself. IRC nicks can be used to grab attention, but there are only a few characters to work with so usually it's just a bit quirky but not really distracting.

MuffinFlavored 8y ago
Let's make a web-browser-accessible persistent IRC with threads and no scores?
- chipotle_coyote 8y ago
  I believe you've described a major chunk of Slack's business model.
  - MuffinFlavored 8y ago
    That's for team communication, not the same niche that reddit/Hacker News fill.
    - maxerickson 8y ago
      It's also used by "interest groups". OpenStreetMap-US has a slack with ~1400 people.
    - colordrops 8y ago
      Doesn't Discord fill the special interest group chat niche?
      - MuffinFlavored 8y ago
        Chat, yes. I wouldn't call HackerNews just a chat. It's articles, then some chat in the comments. That wouldn't work well with Discord I don't think? The main goal of HackerNews (for me) is to load it up, scroll, consume posts from the day, contribute/collaborate/ask questions/ etc. Discord is more about being engaged in the conversation as it is happening
    - chipotle_coyote 8y ago
      No, but Slack arguably serves as a "web-browser-accessible persistent IRC with threads and no scores." I suspect what that describes wouldn't serve the same niche as Reddit/HN, either. It could, but the vibe would be very different.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- progval 8y ago
  IRCCloud. I'm not sure they have threads already, but they are close.
phist_mcgee 8y ago
And 4chan theoretically is better still, because the anonymity means posters are not rewarded at all for their contributions. Even the same poster, posting twice in the thread is not identifiable on most boards, allowing the discussion to be the primary focus. On the other hand, the culture of most *chans is to be abusive and confrontational, so who knows if it is any better.
- darkpuma 8y ago
  In my experience 4chan has more attention seeking behavior than IRC (inline images facilitate it moreso than nicks), and on IRC users tend to be more friendly and aware of each other's humanity.
  - chx 8y ago
    > and on IRC users tend to be more friendly and aware of each other's humanity. I have been on IRC since 1993 but this is news to me.
    - michaelt 8y ago
      'Friendlier than 4chan' is a pretty low bar.
      - chx 8y ago
        For sure but "aware of each other's humanity" is ... not something I'd call your typical IRC dweller.
- newen 8y ago
  4chan style threads with account names might actually be better. You can have really good discussions in imageboards (in the smaller boards) because you don't have a bunch of non-participants butting in with their upvotes and downvotes. Even Metafilter with their very low key favorites "voting system" gives rise to a contest for getting the most favorites.
tru3_power 8y ago
Serious question here- but how do I go about finding irc channels for stuff I’m interested in? When I was younger I loved irc but my warez days are long gone and I literally have no idea where to start looking anymore.
- rhizome 8y ago
  same way you find subreddits: hang out in one you like and people will invariably mention others.
- maxerickson 8y ago
  Probably just check the major networks for active channels. There's not that many networks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Internet_Relay_Chat_networks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Internet_Relay_Chat_n... You can also go in the other direction, checking if the stuff you are interested in lists a channel (which I realize is sort of obvious, whatever).
- darkpuma 8y ago
  I've always started from topics that I'm interested in, then look if there is an IRC channel.
warent 8y ago
This conversation reads like an xkcd strip. "Reddit style threads are the best." "Forums are ideal." "IRC is better." Half expecting this to progress to ARPANET or written letters.
- tomcatfish 8y ago
  A la https://www.xkcd.com/378/ https://www.xkcd.com/378/ (Real Programmers) or https://www.xkcd.com/435/ https://www.xkcd.com/435/ (Purity). This seems to be a thing developer-type people struggle with a lot, and I really think it is an engineering mindset issue. We tend to like the things we have control over or understand completely, and technologies that have hidden parts (like Reddit or certain controversial programming languages) are disliked for their perceived dishonesty.
Bahamut 8y ago
IRC’s problem for deep conversations is that conversations in a chat medium are more ephemeral and that the shorter is better, not unlike Twitter, a format that exemplifies why shorter conversations do not give a great medium for longer/deeper conversations. With forums, posts aren’t generally deleted except by maybe an admin if someone has been violating rules, and due to the permanence, people generally spend more time thinking what what they post.
- darkpuma 8y ago
  With forums you often get a topic that has 500 posts, 480 of which are pure "me too / works for me" noise. Those 500 posts are split into 50 pages of 10 posts each, and page one has the oldest posts. The post with the answer is on page 46 and the pages after that are just 30-40 comments thanking whoever came up with the answer. So if you jump straight to the end then start working backwards, you're looking at maybe 10 or so page loads before you actually find the answer you're looking for. Some forums aren't shit, but all of those cookie cutter PHP forums all seem to be shit.
  - nitrogen 8y ago
    And a fair number of those thanks and me too posts are actually SEO spam with a profile link to some other unrelated site...
  - canofbars 8y ago
    QA forums are trash and they were totally replaced by stack exchange but general talk forums are still quite good. Private torrent trackers always have forums attached and the quality is usually quite good because its very hard to get a new account if you get banned. From what I have seen, private forums are much more civil but its tough to actually build a community when its so much effort to join.
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    This is exactly why HN/Reddit format of tree-structured discussions is superior to linear phpBB forums. They allow for segregating subtopics (on a long forum thread, there are always subtopics and offtopics), letting you ignore the things that are not relevant to you. Were I setting up a discussion forum today, I'd immediately look for something halfway between HN and Reddit. Reddit itself is too much of a PITA to host (we tried in our Hackerspace, but didn't go too far); HN has too little markup and no built-in functionality for storing notifications about replies.
ansible 8y ago
> Even the traditional PHP forum has all kinds of senseless 'flare' on each post. Post counts, signup dates, eye catching signatures, etc. A large portion of the screen space on your typical forum is still dedicated to attention seeking behavior. This is what drives me up a wall with forums. All. The. Visual. Noise. So much crap that obfuscates what I really want to look at.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

nabla9 8y ago

Realistically signal/noise ratio of 0.05 to 0.01 is good enough in open forum comments. It's still possible to scan comments and find the signal from the noise. Usenet was incredible before the eternal September. There was noise, trolls, flame wars and mentally instable people and good and bad moderation decisions, but the good was really good. Party due to the higher quality of the users and from the inability to make money from it. Top people were reading and lurking in relevant newsgroups and commented sometimes or sent private comment via email. HN has two things common with Usenet, good moderation and higher than average users. What has changed is the motives. There are many users who are self promoting or marketing with pseudo-informative submissions. They push blog posts that are just written to increase visibility and "what I experienced when doing business", many of those stories made up. With all this negative stuff, HN has still good singal/noise ratio and you can learn from comments and discussions.

vasili111 8y ago
Do you know other such high quality comment places as hacker news or early Usernet?
- colejohnson66 8y ago
  Lobsters, I’d presume, but it’s invite only
  - eitland 8y ago
    Ask for an invite. That's how I got my account there. Be ready to supply an email address and be aware that at least some of thise who sends invites dig through posting history before sending an invite. Also note that posting and commenting guidelines might be experienced as somewhat stricter than here.

onorton 8y ago

I definitely agree with this too. Even imageboards like 4chan, in the smaller boards at least, you can get a decent discussion as there is no concept of upvotes nor automatic hiding of posts and replies are always in chronological order. The only main difference between them and a traditional forum is anonymity.

mrguyorama 8y ago
Back before the far right started getting really bad in the US (2004-2008ish) I even enjoyed /b/ on 4chan. There were several experiments that would be run on the board, with one eliminating IDs even within individual threads. The effect is that, every idea and comment is judged as-is, with no BS authority. Granted, still being in general a cesspool, and only a few years past its childporn heydays, often very negative ideas are given honest support. But in the end, everything expires after a few hours anyway, no matter how popular, which I always thought was the true value of 4chan