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When I first saw the subreddit, I thought it was a neat idea. I like the idea of digging into a tough subject and challenging our beliefs. I couldn't put my fi

When I first saw the subreddit, I thought it was a neat idea. I like the idea of digging into a tough subject and challenging our beliefs. I couldn't put my finger on it for the longest time, but what I eventually realized was that I didn't like how inauthentic the whole thing felt. Changing a deeply held belief just isn't that easy, yet almost every thread has the OP giving a delta. How it appears to me is that people have beliefs that they realize are either unpopular or controversial, and so they use the subreddit to learn what they "should" believe or at least a rationalization for ignoring their true beliefs.

freewilly1040 8y ago
Beliefs usually aren't changed by one conversation, but that doesn't mean that a single conversation can't contribute to a person changing their view. If it's part a gradual process it can still have value.
zwily 8y ago
In fact, the mods will get mad at you if you don’t give out deltas.
- caprese 8y ago
  deltas?
  - kiike 8y ago
    When the OP's view has somehow changed, or they find a compelling argument, they "award" a delta. It's a message with the delta letter that acknowledges the change of view.
Invictus0 8y ago
The problem is that getting the OP to change their mind on a portion of their submission statement counts as worthy of a delta, even if it makes no material difference to their opinion. For instance, many posters that are not careful with their words might say "most people are bad at ___" but have no supporting data for "most", and so then will simply award a delta and amend their opinion to "too many" or something of that nature.
travmatt 8y ago
People probably don’t use it to question their closely held beliefs. Like me, they probably used it when they had a loosely held opinion that they weren’t sure the validity of.
jedberg 8y ago
I think the main use of CMV is for people to post things they disagree with because they want to crowdsource an argument against it. There's definitely been times when my counterargument to a point was much better articulated on CMV than I could have ever come up with on my own. I wouldn't be surprised if there were political operatives from both parties crowdsourcing arguments that agree with their point of view by posting the opposite point of view.
Sendotsh 8y ago
> How it appears to me is that people have beliefs that they realize are either unpopular or controversial, and so they use the subreddit to learn what they "should" believe or at least a rationalization for ignoring their true beliefs. A large portion of Reddit in general (especially the front page and popular subreddits) is people making up stories/opinions/content created specifically to illicit as many replies and argument as possible, as that's what gets more votes and attention. It's a popularity contest, not a place for genuine discussion. You see it here too, to a lesser extent. You see it everywhere there's likes/upvotes tied to accounts. People compete for the high score. I still personally think forums were/are a better format for discussion. Just a flowing conversation where general activity in a thread bumps it up and not votes.
- darkpuma 8y ago
  Even the traditional PHP forum has all kinds of senseless 'flare' on each post. Post counts, signup dates, eye catching signatures, etc. A large portion of the screen space on your typical forum is still dedicated to attention seeking behavior. IRC is better. There is very little on screen besides the discussion itself. IRC nicks can be used to grab attention, but there are only a few characters to work with so usually it's just a bit quirky but not really distracting.
  - MuffinFlavored 8y ago
    Let's make a web-browser-accessible persistent IRC with threads and no scores?
    - chipotle_coyote 8y ago
      I believe you've described a major chunk of Slack's business model.
      - MuffinFlavored 8y ago
        That's for team communication, not the same niche that reddit/Hacker News fill.
SiempreViernes 8y ago
This is a silly objection! The rules of cmw requires you to only make threads about things were you are open to having your view changed. The aim is modest: just to change op’s view on a topic of their choice, not completely reverse it like the priests in age of empires do.
drcode 8y ago
For better or worse, the "delta" concept has become to mean "you made a good point on the opposite side that I hadn't considered" and still serves a useful function in that context.
- e1ven 8y ago
  This is what the guidelines say, and how I've awarded them - It doesn't mean strictly that you've changed your opinion entirely to agree with them, but that you can appreciate a new perspective. From https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/index#wiki_what_is_a_.27change.27.3F https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/index#wiki_what_i... "Following on from the previous segment, we therefore believe that a change in view simply means a new perspective. Perhaps, in the example of literally looking at something, you've taken a step to the side; or a few steps; or you've moved around and now stand behind it. Maybe you haven't 'moved', but it looks slightly different to you now; in a new light. A change in view need not be a reversal. It can be tangential, or takes place on a new axis altogether."
maxerickson 8y ago
Most of their "true beliefs" are likely enough to be based on wobbly rationalizations.
DONT_BE_A_MORON 8y ago
They should rename it > til with flair as most people are just learning something exists, and it falls foul of the 'right here, right now" fallacy

freewilly1040 8y ago

Beliefs usually aren't changed by one conversation, but that doesn't mean that a single conversation can't contribute to a person changing their view. If it's part a gradual process it can still have value.

zwily 8y ago

In fact, the mods will get mad at you if you don’t give out deltas.

caprese 8y ago
deltas?
- kiike 8y ago
  When the OP's view has somehow changed, or they find a compelling argument, they "award" a delta. It's a message with the delta letter that acknowledges the change of view.

Invictus0 8y ago

The problem is that getting the OP to change their mind on a portion of their submission statement counts as worthy of a delta, even if it makes no material difference to their opinion. For instance, many posters that are not careful with their words might say "most people are bad at ___" but have no supporting data for "most", and so then will simply award a delta and amend their opinion to "too many" or something of that nature.

travmatt 8y ago

People probably don’t use it to question their closely held beliefs. Like me, they probably used it when they had a loosely held opinion that they weren’t sure the validity of.

jedberg 8y ago

I think the main use of CMV is for people to post things they disagree with because they want to crowdsource an argument against it. There's definitely been times when my counterargument to a point was much better articulated on CMV than I could have ever come up with on my own. I wouldn't be surprised if there were political operatives from both parties crowdsourcing arguments that agree with their point of view by posting the opposite point of view.

Sendotsh 8y ago

> How it appears to me is that people have beliefs that they realize are either unpopular or controversial, and so they use the subreddit to learn what they "should" believe or at least a rationalization for ignoring their true beliefs. A large portion of Reddit in general (especially the front page and popular subreddits) is people making up stories/opinions/content created specifically to illicit as many replies and argument as possible, as that's what gets more votes and attention. It's a popularity contest, not a place for genuine discussion. You see it here too, to a lesser extent. You see it everywhere there's likes/upvotes tied to accounts. People compete for the high score. I still personally think forums were/are a better format for discussion. Just a flowing conversation where general activity in a thread bumps it up and not votes.

darkpuma 8y ago
Even the traditional PHP forum has all kinds of senseless 'flare' on each post. Post counts, signup dates, eye catching signatures, etc. A large portion of the screen space on your typical forum is still dedicated to attention seeking behavior. IRC is better. There is very little on screen besides the discussion itself. IRC nicks can be used to grab attention, but there are only a few characters to work with so usually it's just a bit quirky but not really distracting.
- MuffinFlavored 8y ago
  Let's make a web-browser-accessible persistent IRC with threads and no scores?
  - chipotle_coyote 8y ago
    I believe you've described a major chunk of Slack's business model.
    - MuffinFlavored 8y ago
      That's for team communication, not the same niche that reddit/Hacker News fill.

SiempreViernes 8y ago

This is a silly objection! The rules of cmw requires you to only make threads about things were you are open to having your view changed. The aim is modest: just to change op’s view on a topic of their choice, not completely reverse it like the priests in age of empires do.

drcode 8y ago

For better or worse, the "delta" concept has become to mean "you made a good point on the opposite side that I hadn't considered" and still serves a useful function in that context.

e1ven 8y ago
This is what the guidelines say, and how I've awarded them - It doesn't mean strictly that you've changed your opinion entirely to agree with them, but that you can appreciate a new perspective. From https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/index#wiki_what_is_a_.27change.27.3F https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/index#wiki_what_i... "Following on from the previous segment, we therefore believe that a change in view simply means a new perspective. Perhaps, in the example of literally looking at something, you've taken a step to the side; or a few steps; or you've moved around and now stand behind it. Maybe you haven't 'moved', but it looks slightly different to you now; in a new light. A change in view need not be a reversal. It can be tangential, or takes place on a new axis altogether."

maxerickson 8y ago

Most of their "true beliefs" are likely enough to be based on wobbly rationalizations.

DONT_BE_A_MORON 8y ago

They should rename it > til with flair as most people are just learning something exists, and it falls foul of the 'right here, right now" fallacy