5 ms·

Forgive my ignorance, but what are some of the "less good" options? I ask since it's my understanding L-ion supplies are not infinite, so it's probably good to

Forgive my ignorance, but what are some of the "less good" options? I ask since it's my understanding L-ion supplies are not infinite, so it's probably good to think about alternatives if the price spikes. (For example, I'm not an EE, but is it possible that if you're willing to tolerate a bulkier rig for a device to store charge in capacitors?)

Tepix 8y ago
Lithium is widely available, it's the fourth most common element in the Earth's crust.
- pfdietz 8y ago
  Lithium is not the fourth most abundant element in the Earth's crust (that would be iron). Lithium is #33 (by mass), at about 20 ppm.
  - dontbenebby 8y ago
    My bad I must have gotten it confused with something else. I've seen mention that "rare earth minerals" may run out eventually and have implications for batteries but I guess I misremembered.
  - allannienhuis 8y ago
    What's interesting to me is that neither of you provided sources for your claim. On what basis should I accept either of them? Not trying to be a jerk :) And I know not every statement deserves footnotes. Just thought it interesting that even in the case of refuting someone else's information it doesn't happen (often). :)
    - pfdietz 8y ago
      You could do what I did, and look up "Abundance of elements in Earth's crust" in wikipedia. I sometimes don't provide the link if wikipedia is the source, since that will be the first place you look. Crustal abundance is interesting, especially when it diverges from chondritic abundances (which represent solar system averages of most elements except hydrogen and noble gases.)
    - dontbenebby 8y ago
      >Not trying to be a jerk :) And I know not every statement deserves footnotes. Do you think these statements deserved footnotes? Did you attempt to verify the claim and find it difficult to find a corroborating source? Sources are good, but many people use "have a source for that" as DOS attack on civil discourse.
      - allannienhuis 8y ago
        I think in the case of a rebuttal, particularly when the original statement didn't provide any source, it is a useful practice to provide some type of source - even if was a simple reference. eg 'wikipedia' or '1st result on google!'. Otherwise it's just a really uninteresting he-said-she-said back and forth, no? I really don't think every statement of fact needs references - this isn't scientific paper writing. But where someone is calling out something specific as incorrect, I think its often worth a little bit extra effort to avoid things degenerating into something not much more interesting than name calling. That said, neither of those folks owe me anything. :) I'm just happy I get to learn new things once in a while on HN.
  - Tepix 8y ago
    You're right, i must have confused it with something else. Anyway, it isn't rare.
abakker 8y ago
If you can tolerate bulk, lead acid batteries can work pretty well. If you can tolerate a lot of bulk, liquid flow batteries (vanadium) can work too, but I’m not well versed enough in current tech to describe why things might not be in wider use.
iamgopal 8y ago
Tons of research going in to reducing usage of lithium in Li batteries. It's in grams per kw range and reducing, there could be solid lower bound but till we reach there we are trying.

Tepix 8y ago

Lithium is widely available, it's the fourth most common element in the Earth's crust.

pfdietz 8y ago
Lithium is not the fourth most abundant element in the Earth's crust (that would be iron). Lithium is #33 (by mass), at about 20 ppm.
- dontbenebby 8y ago
  My bad I must have gotten it confused with something else. I've seen mention that "rare earth minerals" may run out eventually and have implications for batteries but I guess I misremembered.
- allannienhuis 8y ago
  What's interesting to me is that neither of you provided sources for your claim. On what basis should I accept either of them? Not trying to be a jerk :) And I know not every statement deserves footnotes. Just thought it interesting that even in the case of refuting someone else's information it doesn't happen (often). :)
  - pfdietz 8y ago
    You could do what I did, and look up "Abundance of elements in Earth's crust" in wikipedia. I sometimes don't provide the link if wikipedia is the source, since that will be the first place you look. Crustal abundance is interesting, especially when it diverges from chondritic abundances (which represent solar system averages of most elements except hydrogen and noble gases.)
  - dontbenebby 8y ago
    >Not trying to be a jerk :) And I know not every statement deserves footnotes. Do you think these statements deserved footnotes? Did you attempt to verify the claim and find it difficult to find a corroborating source? Sources are good, but many people use "have a source for that" as DOS attack on civil discourse.
    - allannienhuis 8y ago
      I think in the case of a rebuttal, particularly when the original statement didn't provide any source, it is a useful practice to provide some type of source - even if was a simple reference. eg 'wikipedia' or '1st result on google!'. Otherwise it's just a really uninteresting he-said-she-said back and forth, no? I really don't think every statement of fact needs references - this isn't scientific paper writing. But where someone is calling out something specific as incorrect, I think its often worth a little bit extra effort to avoid things degenerating into something not much more interesting than name calling. That said, neither of those folks owe me anything. :) I'm just happy I get to learn new things once in a while on HN.
- Tepix 8y ago
  You're right, i must have confused it with something else. Anyway, it isn't rare.

abakker 8y ago

If you can tolerate bulk, lead acid batteries can work pretty well. If you can tolerate a lot of bulk, liquid flow batteries (vanadium) can work too, but I’m not well versed enough in current tech to describe why things might not be in wider use.

iamgopal 8y ago

Tons of research going in to reducing usage of lithium in Li batteries. It's in grams per kw range and reducing, there could be solid lower bound but till we reach there we are trying.