5 ms·

This. For example, for people with old fashioned ICE cars like me, Li-ion isn't going to replace my lead acid battery for SLI (starting, lights and ignition) an

This. For example, for people with old fashioned ICE cars like me, Li-ion isn't going to replace my lead acid battery for SLI (starting, lights and ignition) any time soon in -30 degrees C temperatures ;)

qorrect 8y ago
| This. No. We don't do that here.
- dkasper 8y ago
  It’s ok if you add a substantive comment too.
  - sowbug 8y ago
    I wish, though, that people left it out the same way the HN guidelines encourage deleting the "Didn't you read TFA?!" from otherwise substantive comments. It adds nothing and annoys at least two HN readers.
systemBuilder 8y ago
We will regulate your entire car out of existence. Soon.
- supertrope 8y ago
  Battery electric vehicles still have a lead acid battery in addition to the main lithium-ion one. It makes no sense to substitute a 10^3 USD lithium battery for a 10^2 USD lead battery.
- reitzensteinm 8y ago
  Even if parent were making the comment you thought you were relying to, you're in a bubble if you genuinely believe that ICEs are going to be regulated out of existence any time soon.
  - cagenut 8y ago
    assuming 15 years for 100% fleet turnover and a target of zero carbon-emissions from gasoline/cars in the US by 2040, new ICEs will need to be banned in about six years.
    - tgsovlerkhgsel 8y ago
      And how likely, according to your estimate, is this to actually happen, vs. the target falling in the category of "I love deadlines and the whooshing sound they make as they fly by"?
      - cagenut 8y ago
        things only get worse the more we procrastinate. it is a compounding debt.
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehicles#Countries_with_a_full_ban_enacted_into_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehic... Costa Rica has banned new combustion vehicle sales as of 2021, Norway 2025, and other countries 2030-2040. As EVs go mainstream, I expect those deadlines to be pulled forward.
    - reitzensteinm 8y ago
      Costa Rica installed their first public charger in 2017, and has a $10k GDP per capita. The details in this Clean Technica article are damning for this claim. It's pure post election puffery and the plan will be quietly set aside. Norway is aggressive, but the rest of Europe is generally targeting 2030. I'm not expecting the US to even come close to the EU, as range is a much larger factor there. https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/31/costa-rica-is-on-the-brink-of-an-evolution-cleantechnica-exclusive/ https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/31/costa-rica-is-on-the-br...
  - m463 8y ago
    I agree with you. However, I can't help but think that a shift in economics might be the method of changing over, maybe rather quickly.
- crowdpleaser 8y ago
  Come and take it. Good luck chasing me in an electric vehicle.
  - zaroth 8y ago
    Please go to YouTube and search for “Tesla Ludicrous”.
    - crowdpleaser 8y ago
      I ain't racing to 60. I'm racing to ~120-140 and seeing how long those Teslas can hang with a machine that's optimized to go fast and far
- zaroth 8y ago
  Soon enough it won’t even make sense to buy an ICE, once the gas stations all start closing for lack of business. IMO the bans are silly politics and really just grandstanding. We are barely into the adoption curve of EVs and already a base Model 3 is cheaper to own than an Accord or Camry. Give EVs 10 more years (a relative eternity) and they will probably be the majority of new vehicles sold just due to market forces. 10 years after that gas stations will have trouble staying in business. Any fleet will have to switch to EV to be cost competitive on a $/mi basis. Once you can spend $1 to save $1.10 (including interest on the loan) anyone with access to financing will go EV. Which with interest rates only going lower, is almost everyone. The best way to incentivize the next wave of adoption IMO is dramatically reducing the cost of non-peak electricity. Generation costs are already dropping significantly but retail rates are still averaging over 10 cents for supply and another 10 cents for delivery. In MA for example, many areas do not even offer TOU billing, and where it is offered it only reduces the generation cost slightly, not the supply cost, so it barely even saves 25%, which is asinine. [1] My impression is we should be able to deliver non-peak energy for under $0.08/kWh total, supply and generation all-in. That would significantly increase EV adoption! [1] - https://www.eversource.com/clp/vpp/vpphistory.aspx#EMA https://www.eversource.com/clp/vpp/vpphistory.aspx#EMA
CamperBob2 8y ago
It already is, at the high end of the market. The weight savings is attractive to performance car owners in particular. Temperature apparently isn't that big of a deal.
- luma 8y ago
  Lion temperature is still a big deal, which is why EVs (and exotics concerned about weight) will use a system to heat the lithium batteries in sub-zero temps. Most ICE engines don't bother because it costs extra for not much benefit unless you're operating on the edge of performance. Actual race cars do away with the battery and starter altogether.
  - indentit 8y ago
    that's interesting, how do they start a race car's engine? :)
    - luma 8y ago
      Externally in the pits. No need carrying the weight of a starter or battery when you don’t need them on track.
    - acomjean 8y ago
      I noticed that for racing off road motor cycles. They kick start them instead of carrying a battery/started motor. Or old time movies where people started airplanes by spinning the propeller by hand “airplane hand prop” Seems dangerous... https://www.quora.com/How-can-I-hand-prop-planes-Is-it-possible-to-hand-prop-every-plane https://www.quora.com/How-can-I-hand-prop-planes-Is-it-possi...
zrobotics 8y ago
My dad replaced the batteries in his off-grid system last September. This was not an inconsequential purchase, but none of the lithium batteries commercially avaliable were cost-competetive with lead-acid. Sure, they are higher-maintenance, but it was 1/2 the cost of lithium. That being said, I use lithium in my motorcycle for weight savings, and also in my 4WD truck (engine swap, no convenient place for a conventional battery). However, neither vehicle is one I regularly drive in winter, and I don't see lithium replacing lead acid in most cars any time soon. The weight savings are minor enough that it would only be noticeable for the automakers' CAFE ratings.
- driverdan 8y ago
  Your dad did the math wrong. LiFePO4 batteries last significantly longer than lead acid, 2-10 times more cycles. They can handle higher loads and charge faster. They are also more energy dense so they take up less space.
  - zrobotics 8y ago
    But for personal off-grid system charge and discharge times aren't really concerns- fast charging would only be beneficial if the amount of PV panels was grossly oversized. And fast discharging would only mean that it would be that much easier to drain the system and be out of power. Smaller batteries would be nice, but his enclosure was already sized for lead acid, so there isn't much advantage (this system was put online in 2008). And while lead-acid may not be as long-lived, neither he nor I was able to find any batteries currently on sale that offered similar warranty without being prohibitively expensive. He ended up purchasing 8x Trojan SIND-06-920 6V [1] batteries for 735 each ($5880). Add ~$250 for fuel expenses to pick up the batteries (cheaper than trucking) and 300 on new bus-bars (new interconnects would have been needed anyway) for a total of ~6500. There are advantages to lithium, but neither he nor I was able to find any alternatives that were (1) avaliable now (2) at least somewhat price competitive. I see that Trojan now offers Li-ion batteries, but these were introduced after he made his purchase [2]. No clue on their pricing, but they don't look all that much more attractive. I challenge you to find any lithium batteries avaliable that match the performance of this bank for 2x the cost or less. They may last 10x longer, but I couldn't find any real-world usage reports to back that up. Off-grid industrial PbA is a very different beast to car batteries. His last system lasted 10 years, and likely would have lasted longer had his charge-controller not failed and cooked the batteries through overcharging (never went into trickle, just provided full panel power for 1 month before the problem was noticed). [1] https://www.trojanbattery.com/product/sind_06_920/ https://www.trojanbattery.com/product/sind_06_920/ [2] https://www.trojanbattery.com/trillium/ https://www.trojanbattery.com/trillium/
gsich 8y ago
Different usecase.
otabdeveloper2 8y ago
What, you mean you don't live in California?? Get with the times, gramps! Internal combustion engines, are, like, totally last century.

qorrect 8y ago

| This. No. We don't do that here.

dkasper 8y ago
It’s ok if you add a substantive comment too.
- sowbug 8y ago
  I wish, though, that people left it out the same way the HN guidelines encourage deleting the "Didn't you read TFA?!" from otherwise substantive comments. It adds nothing and annoys at least two HN readers.

systemBuilder 8y ago

We will regulate your entire car out of existence. Soon.

supertrope 8y ago
Battery electric vehicles still have a lead acid battery in addition to the main lithium-ion one. It makes no sense to substitute a 10^3 USD lithium battery for a 10^2 USD lead battery.
reitzensteinm 8y ago
Even if parent were making the comment you thought you were relying to, you're in a bubble if you genuinely believe that ICEs are going to be regulated out of existence any time soon.
- cagenut 8y ago
  assuming 15 years for 100% fleet turnover and a target of zero carbon-emissions from gasoline/cars in the US by 2040, new ICEs will need to be banned in about six years.
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 8y ago
    And how likely, according to your estimate, is this to actually happen, vs. the target falling in the category of "I love deadlines and the whooshing sound they make as they fly by"?
    - cagenut 8y ago
      things only get worse the more we procrastinate. it is a compounding debt.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehicles#Countries_with_a_full_ban_enacted_into_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehic... Costa Rica has banned new combustion vehicle sales as of 2021, Norway 2025, and other countries 2030-2040. As EVs go mainstream, I expect those deadlines to be pulled forward.
  - reitzensteinm 8y ago
    Costa Rica installed their first public charger in 2017, and has a $10k GDP per capita. The details in this Clean Technica article are damning for this claim. It's pure post election puffery and the plan will be quietly set aside. Norway is aggressive, but the rest of Europe is generally targeting 2030. I'm not expecting the US to even come close to the EU, as range is a much larger factor there. https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/31/costa-rica-is-on-the-brink-of-an-evolution-cleantechnica-exclusive/ https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/31/costa-rica-is-on-the-br...
- m463 8y ago
  I agree with you. However, I can't help but think that a shift in economics might be the method of changing over, maybe rather quickly.
crowdpleaser 8y ago
Come and take it. Good luck chasing me in an electric vehicle.
- zaroth 8y ago
  Please go to YouTube and search for “Tesla Ludicrous”.
  - crowdpleaser 8y ago
    I ain't racing to 60. I'm racing to ~120-140 and seeing how long those Teslas can hang with a machine that's optimized to go fast and far
zaroth 8y ago
Soon enough it won’t even make sense to buy an ICE, once the gas stations all start closing for lack of business. IMO the bans are silly politics and really just grandstanding. We are barely into the adoption curve of EVs and already a base Model 3 is cheaper to own than an Accord or Camry. Give EVs 10 more years (a relative eternity) and they will probably be the majority of new vehicles sold just due to market forces. 10 years after that gas stations will have trouble staying in business. Any fleet will have to switch to EV to be cost competitive on a $/mi basis. Once you can spend $1 to save $1.10 (including interest on the loan) anyone with access to financing will go EV. Which with interest rates only going lower, is almost everyone. The best way to incentivize the next wave of adoption IMO is dramatically reducing the cost of non-peak electricity. Generation costs are already dropping significantly but retail rates are still averaging over 10 cents for supply and another 10 cents for delivery. In MA for example, many areas do not even offer TOU billing, and where it is offered it only reduces the generation cost slightly, not the supply cost, so it barely even saves 25%, which is asinine. [1] My impression is we should be able to deliver non-peak energy for under $0.08/kWh total, supply and generation all-in. That would significantly increase EV adoption! [1] - https://www.eversource.com/clp/vpp/vpphistory.aspx#EMA https://www.eversource.com/clp/vpp/vpphistory.aspx#EMA

CamperBob2 8y ago

It already is, at the high end of the market. The weight savings is attractive to performance car owners in particular. Temperature apparently isn't that big of a deal.

luma 8y ago
Lion temperature is still a big deal, which is why EVs (and exotics concerned about weight) will use a system to heat the lithium batteries in sub-zero temps. Most ICE engines don't bother because it costs extra for not much benefit unless you're operating on the edge of performance. Actual race cars do away with the battery and starter altogether.
- indentit 8y ago
  that's interesting, how do they start a race car's engine? :)
  - luma 8y ago
    Externally in the pits. No need carrying the weight of a starter or battery when you don’t need them on track.
  - acomjean 8y ago
    I noticed that for racing off road motor cycles. They kick start them instead of carrying a battery/started motor. Or old time movies where people started airplanes by spinning the propeller by hand “airplane hand prop” Seems dangerous... https://www.quora.com/How-can-I-hand-prop-planes-Is-it-possible-to-hand-prop-every-plane https://www.quora.com/How-can-I-hand-prop-planes-Is-it-possi...

zrobotics 8y ago

My dad replaced the batteries in his off-grid system last September. This was not an inconsequential purchase, but none of the lithium batteries commercially avaliable were cost-competetive with lead-acid. Sure, they are higher-maintenance, but it was 1/2 the cost of lithium. That being said, I use lithium in my motorcycle for weight savings, and also in my 4WD truck (engine swap, no convenient place for a conventional battery). However, neither vehicle is one I regularly drive in winter, and I don't see lithium replacing lead acid in most cars any time soon. The weight savings are minor enough that it would only be noticeable for the automakers' CAFE ratings.

driverdan 8y ago
Your dad did the math wrong. LiFePO4 batteries last significantly longer than lead acid, 2-10 times more cycles. They can handle higher loads and charge faster. They are also more energy dense so they take up less space.
- zrobotics 8y ago
  But for personal off-grid system charge and discharge times aren't really concerns- fast charging would only be beneficial if the amount of PV panels was grossly oversized. And fast discharging would only mean that it would be that much easier to drain the system and be out of power. Smaller batteries would be nice, but his enclosure was already sized for lead acid, so there isn't much advantage (this system was put online in 2008). And while lead-acid may not be as long-lived, neither he nor I was able to find any batteries currently on sale that offered similar warranty without being prohibitively expensive. He ended up purchasing 8x Trojan SIND-06-920 6V [1] batteries for 735 each ($5880). Add ~$250 for fuel expenses to pick up the batteries (cheaper than trucking) and 300 on new bus-bars (new interconnects would have been needed anyway) for a total of ~6500. There are advantages to lithium, but neither he nor I was able to find any alternatives that were (1) avaliable now (2) at least somewhat price competitive. I see that Trojan now offers Li-ion batteries, but these were introduced after he made his purchase [2]. No clue on their pricing, but they don't look all that much more attractive. I challenge you to find any lithium batteries avaliable that match the performance of this bank for 2x the cost or less. They may last 10x longer, but I couldn't find any real-world usage reports to back that up. Off-grid industrial PbA is a very different beast to car batteries. His last system lasted 10 years, and likely would have lasted longer had his charge-controller not failed and cooked the batteries through overcharging (never went into trickle, just provided full panel power for 1 month before the problem was noticed). [1] https://www.trojanbattery.com/product/sind_06_920/ https://www.trojanbattery.com/product/sind_06_920/ [2] https://www.trojanbattery.com/trillium/ https://www.trojanbattery.com/trillium/

gsich 8y ago

Different usecase.

otabdeveloper2 8y ago

What, you mean you don't live in California?? Get with the times, gramps! Internal combustion engines, are, like, totally last century.