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Didn't we just see last year that a stabilized sodium-ion battery is partway through productization work[0] and proofs of concept are available? I can't find an

Didn't we just see last year that a stabilized sodium-ion battery is partway through productization work[0] and proofs of concept are available? I can't find any mention of this fairly important and rapid work in the article? Lithium Ion batteries will be cheaper for a while, but once sodium ion batteries can be produced at scale it'll greatly reduce global dependence on very specific regions for high yield lithium mines. The net result will be cheaper batteries. [0]: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/09/180912111913.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/09/180912111913.h...

maxerickson 8y ago
There's a couple hundred dollars of lithium in a 100 kw-hour battery. It isn't particularly driving the cost.
- KirinDave 8y ago
  And if that was 10 dollars of sodium, that sounds like a pretty big cost reduction to me? Sodium is cheap to extract from all sorts of sources, less toxic to humans than lithium pre-processing, and you don't have to move it around the world. Sodium batteries don't just replace the lithium, they also use phosphorus electrodes. Also easy to source.
  - fmajid 8y ago
    The most important benefit of sodium batteries is safety, they don't suffer from the runaway thermal failures of LiIon. The 10% or so cost advantage itself is not compelling.
    - KirinDave 8y ago
      The ability to source parts globally and without scarcity seems pretty damn compelling. And the lack of thermal runaway means you can have cheaper charging and regulation features on the battery.
  - maxerickson 8y ago
    $200 on a $10,000 or $15,000 battery. I definitely think we can run a nice civilization on sodium batteries if we need to, that wasn't my point.
  - pfdietz 8y ago
    If you want rock bottom materials cost, go with sulfur chemistry. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2542435117300326 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S254243511... "the cost of active materials per stored energy is exceptionally low, ∼US$1/kWh when using sodium polysulfide."
- airbreather 8y ago
  Plus high grade nickel (as in only some refineries make it), cobalt, graphite. You need lithium, but it doesn't do it on it's own.
  - KirinDave 8y ago
    Sodium Ion batteries use a dramatically different design that doesn't include the common components.

maxerickson 8y ago

There's a couple hundred dollars of lithium in a 100 kw-hour battery. It isn't particularly driving the cost.

KirinDave 8y ago
And if that was 10 dollars of sodium, that sounds like a pretty big cost reduction to me? Sodium is cheap to extract from all sorts of sources, less toxic to humans than lithium pre-processing, and you don't have to move it around the world. Sodium batteries don't just replace the lithium, they also use phosphorus electrodes. Also easy to source.
- fmajid 8y ago
  The most important benefit of sodium batteries is safety, they don't suffer from the runaway thermal failures of LiIon. The 10% or so cost advantage itself is not compelling.
  - KirinDave 8y ago
    The ability to source parts globally and without scarcity seems pretty damn compelling. And the lack of thermal runaway means you can have cheaper charging and regulation features on the battery.
- maxerickson 8y ago
  $200 on a $10,000 or $15,000 battery. I definitely think we can run a nice civilization on sodium batteries if we need to, that wasn't my point.
- pfdietz 8y ago
  If you want rock bottom materials cost, go with sulfur chemistry. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2542435117300326 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S254243511... "the cost of active materials per stored energy is exceptionally low, ∼US$1/kWh when using sodium polysulfide."
airbreather 8y ago
Plus high grade nickel (as in only some refineries make it), cobalt, graphite. You need lithium, but it doesn't do it on it's own.
- KirinDave 8y ago
  Sodium Ion batteries use a dramatically different design that doesn't include the common components.