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It depends on the application. There are plenty of applications where Li-ion is not the optimal solution. Li-ion is not the defacto standard for a myriad of re

It depends on the application. There are plenty of applications where Li-ion is not the optimal solution. Li-ion is not the defacto standard for a myriad of reasons in various sectors. Certain massive installations have requirements that li-ion cannot work for. For consumer electronics, maybe li-ion is the best thing we have but for other applications there are breakthroughs made on yearly basis. Enerpoly for instance have prototyped Zinc-Manganese batteries that have great life-cycle, are rechargeable and have great power output for less than 40euro/KWh. In the next few years you will see more and more solutions targeting specific industries and needs. Li-ion is not a silver bullet as its production cost and lifetime is not the greatest of all the solutions offered. http://enerpoly.com/technology/ http://enerpoly.com/technology/ Full Disclosure: I know the CEO of the company and this is not an ad or anything like that. I just want people to pay more attention to upcoming improvements in the sector.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
barney54 8y ago
I also wanted to make this note about the application matters. Lithium ion are great, especially for electronics and EVs. They are pretty good for grid scale, but we need other technologies there. Currently the largest source of storage on the grid is pumped hydro (about 95% of storage on the grid) and it will continue to be the largest source of storage for a long time.
- usrusr 8y ago
  Depending on what exactly you want to measure, the largest grid storage by far is the power-to-gas/gas cavern/gas power plant cycle. But of course only a miniscule fraction of the energy currently going through caverns and gas plants comes from power-to-gas, so it's not wrong to put pumped hydro ahead (possibly even battery installations, p2g is tiny)
oliveshell 8y ago
That’s quite interesting, actually. I presume a rechargeable zinc-manganese battery would be less of a fire risk than lithium-ion. (A zinc-manganese chemistry is what most disposable alkaline batteries use.)
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- wesammikhail 8y ago
  That is indeed the case and they are also promising long life time and rechargability
thereisnospork 8y ago
Not to be the negative-Nancy in the room but there's a massive gap between prototype and commercially viable at a chemical level and then another between chemically stable and commercially producible. I wish them the best, but there a probably at least a dozen similar companies with roughly similar claims with different underlying chemistries (flow batteries, etc.) and many more that haven't panned out for one reason or another. People are most definitely trying to replace Li-ion but its not an easy thing to do in practice, even if simple enough on paper.
- wesammikhail 8y ago
  I dont find your comment to be negative at all. You´re raising a valid point. All I am doing is drawing attention to the fact that people are trying. And if just one of all the experiments out there succeeds is a net benefit to us all. IF people can deliver on the other hand is a different thing. Only time will tell but I remain hopeful!
  - xbmcuser 8y ago
    The thing is any new battery tech will have to be as good or better when introduced to stand a chance and lithium ion is not a standing target it also keeps improving. So someone working on new battery tech would need to target being at least 2-3 times as cheap and easier to produce 5 years from now if you look at the lithium ion cost trajectory.
  - j45 8y ago
    Not speaking about the above poster, but sometimes trying gets talked down by talkers. I hope there can be other ways to be pragmatic and supportive. It's easy to be logical.
- j45 8y ago
  My comment is in general towards these types of 'I don't mean to be negative but let me be not positive comments'. Is HN the place to encourage doubt worship, or is it a place to encourage curiosity and put in effort? When wishing someone the best to operationalize and commercialize, why not say just, that instead of packaging it in a backhanded well wish? There's no doubt this iz a hard problem to get in market. Innovation and breakthroughs like LiON also happened in a mindset of imagination, exploring possibilities, being a little posiviely reasonable and stubborn. A doubt based mindset isn't as open to possibilities or innovating as a curious mindset that undertakes action and puts in effort. This is the first time I've heard of this company and I hope the battery issue leaps soon and hope they continue their efforts, unconditionally. Maybe they could go after safe incremental improvements with a shorter shelf life. There's a reason creators are following your own compass and not others.
indentit 8y ago
This. For example, for people with old fashioned ICE cars like me, Li-ion isn't going to replace my lead acid battery for SLI (starting, lights and ignition) any time soon in -30 degrees C temperatures ;)
- qorrect 8y ago
  | This. No. We don't do that here.
  - dkasper 8y ago
    It’s ok if you add a substantive comment too.
    - sowbug 8y ago
      I wish, though, that people left it out the same way the HN guidelines encourage deleting the "Didn't you read TFA?!" from otherwise substantive comments. It adds nothing and annoys at least two HN readers.
- systemBuilder 8y ago
  We will regulate your entire car out of existence. Soon.
  - supertrope 8y ago
    Battery electric vehicles still have a lead acid battery in addition to the main lithium-ion one. It makes no sense to substitute a 10^3 USD lithium battery for a 10^2 USD lead battery.
  - reitzensteinm 8y ago
    Even if parent were making the comment you thought you were relying to, you're in a bubble if you genuinely believe that ICEs are going to be regulated out of existence any time soon.
HoochieKoo 8y ago
True. In the next 100 years 99% of the world’s current population will be dead.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

barney54 8y ago

I also wanted to make this note about the application matters. Lithium ion are great, especially for electronics and EVs. They are pretty good for grid scale, but we need other technologies there. Currently the largest source of storage on the grid is pumped hydro (about 95% of storage on the grid) and it will continue to be the largest source of storage for a long time.

usrusr 8y ago
Depending on what exactly you want to measure, the largest grid storage by far is the power-to-gas/gas cavern/gas power plant cycle. But of course only a miniscule fraction of the energy currently going through caverns and gas plants comes from power-to-gas, so it's not wrong to put pumped hydro ahead (possibly even battery installations, p2g is tiny)

oliveshell 8y ago

That’s quite interesting, actually. I presume a rechargeable zinc-manganese battery would be less of a fire risk than lithium-ion. (A zinc-manganese chemistry is what most disposable alkaline batteries use.)

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
wesammikhail 8y ago
That is indeed the case and they are also promising long life time and rechargability

thereisnospork 8y ago

Not to be the negative-Nancy in the room but there's a massive gap between prototype and commercially viable at a chemical level and then another between chemically stable and commercially producible. I wish them the best, but there a probably at least a dozen similar companies with roughly similar claims with different underlying chemistries (flow batteries, etc.) and many more that haven't panned out for one reason or another. People are most definitely trying to replace Li-ion but its not an easy thing to do in practice, even if simple enough on paper.

wesammikhail 8y ago
I dont find your comment to be negative at all. You´re raising a valid point. All I am doing is drawing attention to the fact that people are trying. And if just one of all the experiments out there succeeds is a net benefit to us all. IF people can deliver on the other hand is a different thing. Only time will tell but I remain hopeful!
- xbmcuser 8y ago
  The thing is any new battery tech will have to be as good or better when introduced to stand a chance and lithium ion is not a standing target it also keeps improving. So someone working on new battery tech would need to target being at least 2-3 times as cheap and easier to produce 5 years from now if you look at the lithium ion cost trajectory.
- j45 8y ago
  Not speaking about the above poster, but sometimes trying gets talked down by talkers. I hope there can be other ways to be pragmatic and supportive. It's easy to be logical.
j45 8y ago
My comment is in general towards these types of 'I don't mean to be negative but let me be not positive comments'. Is HN the place to encourage doubt worship, or is it a place to encourage curiosity and put in effort? When wishing someone the best to operationalize and commercialize, why not say just, that instead of packaging it in a backhanded well wish? There's no doubt this iz a hard problem to get in market. Innovation and breakthroughs like LiON also happened in a mindset of imagination, exploring possibilities, being a little posiviely reasonable and stubborn. A doubt based mindset isn't as open to possibilities or innovating as a curious mindset that undertakes action and puts in effort. This is the first time I've heard of this company and I hope the battery issue leaps soon and hope they continue their efforts, unconditionally. Maybe they could go after safe incremental improvements with a shorter shelf life. There's a reason creators are following your own compass and not others.

indentit 8y ago

This. For example, for people with old fashioned ICE cars like me, Li-ion isn't going to replace my lead acid battery for SLI (starting, lights and ignition) any time soon in -30 degrees C temperatures ;)

qorrect 8y ago
| This. No. We don't do that here.
- dkasper 8y ago
  It’s ok if you add a substantive comment too.
  - sowbug 8y ago
    I wish, though, that people left it out the same way the HN guidelines encourage deleting the "Didn't you read TFA?!" from otherwise substantive comments. It adds nothing and annoys at least two HN readers.
systemBuilder 8y ago
We will regulate your entire car out of existence. Soon.
- supertrope 8y ago
  Battery electric vehicles still have a lead acid battery in addition to the main lithium-ion one. It makes no sense to substitute a 10^3 USD lithium battery for a 10^2 USD lead battery.
- reitzensteinm 8y ago
  Even if parent were making the comment you thought you were relying to, you're in a bubble if you genuinely believe that ICEs are going to be regulated out of existence any time soon.

HoochieKoo 8y ago

True. In the next 100 years 99% of the world’s current population will be dead.