6 ms·

> Impoverished people aren't poor because they occasionally buy coffee Impoverished people might be poor because they take everything literally and can't see t

by sisu2019 8y ago

> Impoverished people aren't poor because they occasionally buy coffee Impoverished people might be poor because they take everything literally and can't see the big picture though. Yes, frivolous spending absolutely has something to do with poverty. It's so clear and obvious and when I look at every example of a person that I know that could be called poor vs someone that is rich there is the same pattern: The poor ones HATE doing what's necessary, work, personal grooming, cleaning, eating healthy, working out whatever but they LOVE spending money they don't have on things they don't need and that will not make them happy. If you try to stop them from spending, they suffer. But if they spend it's the hedonistic treadmill: increase amount and GOTO 10. Rich people I know LOVE to work. They would work for free. They get up and go work and if you stop them they suffer. The rich people I know HATE spending money. It causes them physical discomfort. IF they spend, they consider it for quite some time, look for deals or wait for special offers. Subsequently they are very happy with their purchases and keep them maintained and in good order. > They're poor because there's an economic system currently in place which is slurping as much wealth away from as many people as possible to feed it to just a few. None of this is true. We are getting wealthier and wealthier from this magnificent system that lifted BILLIONS out of poverty the last 50 years. > small pleasures This is a perfect example of the poverty mindset: consume to be happy. There is enough pleasure to be had without spending a single dime, in fact, the most fulfilling activities will net you money directly or indirectly. It's possible to be content without spending money all the time. If you think that the happiness in your life comes down to small or large purchases you are already on the wrong path. Just turn back. And by the way, the story of lotto winners is instructive: you simply can't spend your way out of the poverty mindset.

Broken_Hippo 8y ago
"Rich people I know LOVE to work. They would work for free." Would they work fast food for as many hours? How about in a call center where half the customers are angry and taking it out on you? How about if they couldn't afford the basics in life from the job? How about if they couldn't afford health care or food, so when working they are always tired? The rich people you know don't have to deal with the crap poor folks do. They are more likely to be able to take vacations, spend money on things that make them happy (maybe it is their company/job, but it is still spending). They aren't worried that being late to pick up the kids will cost enough to make you have to eat less for the rest of the month, nor that a flat tire means you have to go without electricity. IF they spend, they consider it for quite some time, look for deals or wait for special offers. Subsequently they are very happy with their purchases and keep them maintained and in good order. Poor people don't have this luxury. Everyone would rather have comfortable shoes, but if you only have $15 for shoes and can't save up for 6 months for something better, you have to buy the $15 shoes. Even with good maintenance, $15 shoes aren't going to last like $100 shoes. And by the way, the story of lotto winners is instructive: you simply can't spend your way out of the poverty mindset. This doesn't prove anything. It proves that poverty deprives you of chances to practice long-term financial planning and unsurprisingly, when impovershed people suddenly get a lump sum of money, they fare poorly with the long-term planning. In contrast, rich folks have regular income. Even if you mess up one month, you have some income the next month. I'm going to guess if lotteries paid out monthly for as many years as jobs do, things would look different. Especially if it had an amount of upfront windfall followed by the monthly salary.
- sisu2019 8y ago
  > Would they work fast food for as many hours? You don't fully understand how these "next door millionaire" types operate. They don't look at something and say "that's fast food work". They work at what is necessary for however long it takes. My girlfriend is building her two businesses, she spends nights in the basement sewing piece after piece by the dozens and the days churning out t-shirt design after t-shirt design. If you break down her "working conditions" and "hourly wage" I am pretty sure a fast food job would look better on paper. But she is on a growth path while the average worker (it's not like this is foreign to me) is just looking to get off of work and get spending which is is a path to nothing. > you know don't have to deal with the crap poor folks do. The infuriating part about it is exactly that a lot of the "crap" that happens to them is self-inflicted. I know this "poor" woman who had a child in order to get a guy who wasn't even the father into a relationship with her (yes, you read that right), then while pregnant smoked and ate only garbage. Now the child has birth defects, likely from the smoking, and at three is already one year developmentally delayed because even though she is on the generous German welfare she didn't see fit to spend any time playing or going outside with him. She has a car that she "needs" because she is so skinny fat that she literally can't walk to the next bus stop. So what does she do when she get's any kind of money? Spends it on new rims, trims and whatever crap people put on their cars to "soup" them up. All of the ideas she has about life are false and destructive and everything she does is wrong. There is no helping her. We really tried but she is literally too dumb to make connections between actions and consequences. Instead all of here brain power seems to go to thinking up stories to feel better about herself. It's impossible. She is a bottomless pit and resources keep pouring into it. She had years on welfare even though she could work. She got gifted three cars by friends. She get's "free" healthcare that will sort out the consequences of her very bad habits. Now the state is paying extra for a special needs kindergarden for her son. It's never enough, it can't ever be enough. What she needs are some of the existential problems you mentioned so that she has to get her shit together. > Poor people don't have this luxury. Everyone would rather have comfortable shoes, but if you only have $15 for shoes and can't save up for 6 months for something better, you have to buy the $15 shoes. Even with good maintenance, $15 shoes aren't going to last like $100 shoes. To the larger point : this is the Sam Vimes theory of social economic justice and yeah, it's truly hard to break a vicious cycle. That's why it's absolutely imperative to start a virtuous cycle no matter how tiny because it can make a huge difference over time. Start making your own coffee, save $5 here and there now you have $50. Oh what's that, a WIDGETGARGBLASTER at half price? Well, I'm pretty sure my car will need one soon, I am going to use my nest egg to buy that for cheap. Thank god I had this WIDGETGAGBLASTER because wouldn't you know it, my car broke down just as I was about to go for my job interview. I mean it's contrived sure but in three steps saving $5 a day already could've made a difference in 10000s of dollars in lifetime earnings. To the concrete example: under capitalism what's actually true is that you can get garbage for tiny prices, very decent quality at low prices, super value at medium prices and luxury for high prices. The kind of poverty where hard-working people want for basic material things is abolished and it's really weird that people keep arguing as if it still existed. What's a lot closer reality is that the next door millionaire type has $50 leather shoes from ten years ago while the 'poor' person has a $500 dollar sneaker 'collection' financed by credit card debt. > poverty deprives you of chances to practice long-term financial planning Clearly this is putting the cart before the horse. > I'm going to guess if lotteries paid out monthly for as many years as jobs do, things would look different No, it would be worse. You have a steady, guaranteed income like that you can borrow against it and the instant gratification crowd is going to do just that. Here is some food for though about the scope of poverty: http://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/MiddleClass_2017-1.png?fbclid=IwAR17srLN9MthGdAsPnnSIeGL3EQ5x-feXAXpuO5xw3iUXl4uvM4Iv6GrVCY http://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/MiddleClass_20... And the causes of poverty: https://thefederalist.com/2018/05/24/study-no-1-reason-americans-poor-theyre-not-working/?fbclid=IwAR3aZbVg-7Qjz1RcAjpKk-duzauFFrIQDZVcWti_mUl0BzFEMKaRlMdNJT0 https://thefederalist.com/2018/05/24/study-no-1-reason-ameri... "Americans who graduate high school, work full time (even at minimum wage), and marry before having kids are essentially guaranteed to not live in poverty. These are all choices, not happenstance."

Broken_Hippo 8y ago

"Rich people I know LOVE to work. They would work for free." Would they work fast food for as many hours? How about in a call center where half the customers are angry and taking it out on you? How about if they couldn't afford the basics in life from the job? How about if they couldn't afford health care or food, so when working they are always tired? The rich people you know don't have to deal with the crap poor folks do. They are more likely to be able to take vacations, spend money on things that make them happy (maybe it is their company/job, but it is still spending). They aren't worried that being late to pick up the kids will cost enough to make you have to eat less for the rest of the month, nor that a flat tire means you have to go without electricity. IF they spend, they consider it for quite some time, look for deals or wait for special offers. Subsequently they are very happy with their purchases and keep them maintained and in good order. Poor people don't have this luxury. Everyone would rather have comfortable shoes, but if you only have $15 for shoes and can't save up for 6 months for something better, you have to buy the $15 shoes. Even with good maintenance, $15 shoes aren't going to last like $100 shoes. And by the way, the story of lotto winners is instructive: you simply can't spend your way out of the poverty mindset. This doesn't prove anything. It proves that poverty deprives you of chances to practice long-term financial planning and unsurprisingly, when impovershed people suddenly get a lump sum of money, they fare poorly with the long-term planning. In contrast, rich folks have regular income. Even if you mess up one month, you have some income the next month. I'm going to guess if lotteries paid out monthly for as many years as jobs do, things would look different. Especially if it had an amount of upfront windfall followed by the monthly salary.

sisu2019 8y ago
> Would they work fast food for as many hours? You don't fully understand how these "next door millionaire" types operate. They don't look at something and say "that's fast food work". They work at what is necessary for however long it takes. My girlfriend is building her two businesses, she spends nights in the basement sewing piece after piece by the dozens and the days churning out t-shirt design after t-shirt design. If you break down her "working conditions" and "hourly wage" I am pretty sure a fast food job would look better on paper. But she is on a growth path while the average worker (it's not like this is foreign to me) is just looking to get off of work and get spending which is is a path to nothing. > you know don't have to deal with the crap poor folks do. The infuriating part about it is exactly that a lot of the "crap" that happens to them is self-inflicted. I know this "poor" woman who had a child in order to get a guy who wasn't even the father into a relationship with her (yes, you read that right), then while pregnant smoked and ate only garbage. Now the child has birth defects, likely from the smoking, and at three is already one year developmentally delayed because even though she is on the generous German welfare she didn't see fit to spend any time playing or going outside with him. She has a car that she "needs" because she is so skinny fat that she literally can't walk to the next bus stop. So what does she do when she get's any kind of money? Spends it on new rims, trims and whatever crap people put on their cars to "soup" them up. All of the ideas she has about life are false and destructive and everything she does is wrong. There is no helping her. We really tried but she is literally too dumb to make connections between actions and consequences. Instead all of here brain power seems to go to thinking up stories to feel better about herself. It's impossible. She is a bottomless pit and resources keep pouring into it. She had years on welfare even though she could work. She got gifted three cars by friends. She get's "free" healthcare that will sort out the consequences of her very bad habits. Now the state is paying extra for a special needs kindergarden for her son. It's never enough, it can't ever be enough. What she needs are some of the existential problems you mentioned so that she has to get her shit together. > Poor people don't have this luxury. Everyone would rather have comfortable shoes, but if you only have $15 for shoes and can't save up for 6 months for something better, you have to buy the $15 shoes. Even with good maintenance, $15 shoes aren't going to last like $100 shoes. To the larger point : this is the Sam Vimes theory of social economic justice and yeah, it's truly hard to break a vicious cycle. That's why it's absolutely imperative to start a virtuous cycle no matter how tiny because it can make a huge difference over time. Start making your own coffee, save $5 here and there now you have $50. Oh what's that, a WIDGETGARGBLASTER at half price? Well, I'm pretty sure my car will need one soon, I am going to use my nest egg to buy that for cheap. Thank god I had this WIDGETGAGBLASTER because wouldn't you know it, my car broke down just as I was about to go for my job interview. I mean it's contrived sure but in three steps saving $5 a day already could've made a difference in 10000s of dollars in lifetime earnings. To the concrete example: under capitalism what's actually true is that you can get garbage for tiny prices, very decent quality at low prices, super value at medium prices and luxury for high prices. The kind of poverty where hard-working people want for basic material things is abolished and it's really weird that people keep arguing as if it still existed. What's a lot closer reality is that the next door millionaire type has $50 leather shoes from ten years ago while the 'poor' person has a $500 dollar sneaker 'collection' financed by credit card debt. > poverty deprives you of chances to practice long-term financial planning Clearly this is putting the cart before the horse. > I'm going to guess if lotteries paid out monthly for as many years as jobs do, things would look different No, it would be worse. You have a steady, guaranteed income like that you can borrow against it and the instant gratification crowd is going to do just that. Here is some food for though about the scope of poverty: http://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/MiddleClass_2017-1.png?fbclid=IwAR17srLN9MthGdAsPnnSIeGL3EQ5x-feXAXpuO5xw3iUXl4uvM4Iv6GrVCY http://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/MiddleClass_20... And the causes of poverty: https://thefederalist.com/2018/05/24/study-no-1-reason-americans-poor-theyre-not-working/?fbclid=IwAR3aZbVg-7Qjz1RcAjpKk-duzauFFrIQDZVcWti_mUl0BzFEMKaRlMdNJT0 https://thefederalist.com/2018/05/24/study-no-1-reason-ameri... "Americans who graduate high school, work full time (even at minimum wage), and marry before having kids are essentially guaranteed to not live in poverty. These are all choices, not happenstance."