6 ms·

Major study debunks myth that moderate drinking can be healthy

34 points by Ultramanoid 8y ago

resource0x 8y ago
I can confirm that. Moved from moderate to heavy drinking lately - feeling much better ever since.
unseenbastiat 8y ago
Unfortunately, one study cannot “debunk” anything. Between the state of conflicting information in epidemiology, the replication crisis in science in general, self reporting methodology, publication bias, etc . . . there are plenty of reasons to be skeptical. That’s not even a remark on the findings; even if the findings were the opposite, all these undermining factors would remain.
headShrinker 8y ago
As I tried to point out in another thread, the WHO, AMA, AHA, etc in 2005 designated alcohol as the next target to reduce disease. Those 3-letter acronyms are funding majority negative alcohol effect study as it agrees with their literal ‘global agenda’. That’s why researchers are producing negative alcohol effect studies and why they are so popular. Researchers want to get published. It’s also clear that much of the work is meta study or simple questionnaire. In other words, much of the new negative alcohol publications aren’t based on actual science. See? No tin-foil hats required As for this study... > Between April 1993 and December 1998, 63 257 individuals completed an in-person interview that included questions on usual diet, demographics, height and weight, use of tobacco, usual physical activity, menstrual and reproductive history (women only), medical history, and family history of cancer. The institutional review boards at the National University of Singapore and the University of Minnesota approved this study. They asked people a bunch of questions about their behavior and “usual diet” in actuality exact diet would be a more accurate indicator of disease precursors... diet controls so much of everyone’s lives and deaths more than any other modern daily life input. Unless they are consuming large amounts of alcohol aka heavy drinkers. Source study: https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/circulationaha.111.048843 https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/circulationaha....
- k__ 8y ago
  Are there any substances that have a similar effect as alcohol, but are more healthy?
  - iMark 8y ago
    It’s being worked on https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/alcohol-hangover-liver-damage-alcosynth-david-nutt-a8841141.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/alco...
  - tempguy9999 8y ago
    I've tried diethyl ether <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethyl_ether#Recreational_use> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethyl_ether#Recreational_use... recreationally. It is interesting (the metacognition part) but not very pleasant (the vapour is odourous and actually painful on your nose/lungs if huffed), and difficult to swallow if ingested. Also you stink for hours afterwards. And it's dangerously flammable. As always, when I try something new I do a lot of reading up first to suss the risks, and one article I came across claimed that it was less harmful than alcohol. I don't know if that's true, just reporting. Read up erowid experiences first if you do try it. And if you do, don't be fucking stupid - I get tired of the way people so easily abuse any drug, even alcohol. Perhaps especially alcohol. I can't particularly recommend it. FYI anyway. edit: formatting
    - k__ 8y ago
      lol, is this the stuff they take in "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" when they see the crocodiles?
      - tempguy9999 8y ago
        Umm, I doubt it. I mentioned ether in response to the question about alcohol, and didn't make it clear that my point was the effect is similar to alcohol (though not quite the same - you retain some clarity and you don't get hungry afterwards). You're no more likely to hallucinate on one any more than the other IME. I guess it's acid or mescaline instead. I understand that F&LiLV tended to big up (or even invent) the drugs' effects (bullshit about adrenochrome? "In the DVD commentary, director Terry Gilliam admits that his and Thompson's portrayal is a fictional exaggeration" <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrenochrome> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrenochrome>). Ether just gets you pissed a bit like booze, that's all. Oh, here we go “The only thing that really worried me was the ether. There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. And I knew we'd get into that rotten stuff pretty soon [...]” <https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/320840-the-only-thing-that-really-worried-me-was-the-ether> https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/320840-the-only-thing-that-... yep, that strikes me as bullshit.
coldtea 8y ago
Yeah, and the next study will re-instate that drinking can be healthy. Until those studies have been going on for decades, with counter studies, and criticism, etc, and end up part of conventional 101 university curriculum, any individual study (even meta-study, also shoddily done more often than not) is not worth the paper they are printed on for the average reader.
- feinmann 8y ago
  You cannot criticize academic studies here. You see, everything has to be evaluated on its own merit, so you have to read all 535.134 pro and 611.232 contra studies and have time to debate them, just like a bureaucrat. Alternatively, quote a rogue authority, like Feynman: "A committee is twelve people doing the work of one".
inciampati 8y ago
> Because the variants have specific and large effects on alcohol, but do not effect other lifestyle factors such as diet, smoking, economic status or education, they can be used by scientists to nail down causal effects of alcohol intake. Well, yes, but only in people with a similar genetic background. Using this as a kind of instrumental variable assumes an additive or linear model of genome environment interactions which is about as realistic as a flat Earth model. It may be that this study is being oversold.
jimhefferon 8y ago
The article seems to say that it is the blood pressure that statistically causes strokes, and that even moderate drinking statistically raises blood pressure. Is that a fair summary?
- WalterSear 8y ago
  They keep mentioning the two, but never explicitly state the connection.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
propter_hoc 8y ago
FWIW, I've been struggling with gallstone issues recently, and my doctor actually advised me to have a glass of wine a night. Here are two recent studies on the topic. [1] Alcohol consumption and risk of gallstone disease: a meta-analysis. Wang J, et al. Eur J Gastroenterol Hepatol. 2017. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/27926662/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/27926662/ "A linear dose-response relationship was found between alcohol consumption and gallstone disease risk and the risk of gallstone disease decreased by 12% (RR=0.88, 95% CI: 0.84-0.92; Pnonlinearity=0.079) for each 10 g/day increment in alcohol consumption. This meta-analysis suggests that alcohol consumption is associated with significantly decreased risk of gallstone disease." [2] Alcohol Consumption Can Reduce the Risk of Gallstone Disease: A Systematic Review with a Dose-Response Meta-Analysis of Case-Control and Cohort Studies. Cha BH, et al. Gut Liver. 2019. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/30665280/?i=6&from=/27926662/related https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/30665280/?i=6&from=/27... "In this systematic review with meta-analysis, alcohol consumption could decrease the risk of GSD, and the dose-response analysis revealed a dose-dependent linear risk reduction and a weakened linear trend between alcohol consumption levels less than and greater than 28 g/day."
partiallypro 8y ago
"The research, which used data from a 160,000-strong cohort of Chinese adults, many of whom are unable to drink alcohol due to genetic intolerance" That seems like a pretty big flaw in the study, no?
- achamayou 8y ago
  Depends, it might also be a feature if you suspect people under-report their drinking. Your non-drinking group may in fact be drinking just as much as your moderate drinking group.
- tlamponi 8y ago
  If you had read all: > This [..] study [..] focused on people of East Asian descent, many of whom have genetic variants that limit alcohol tolerance. > Because the variants have specific and large effects on alcohol, but do not effect other lifestyle factors such as diet, smoking, economic status or education, they can be used by scientists to nail down causal effects of alcohol intake and > The research team - including scientists from Oxford and Peking universities and the Chinese Academy of Medical Sciences, said it would be impossible to do a study of this kind in Western populations, since almost no-one there has the relevant alcohol-intolerance gene variants. it's the base pillar of their study..
  - wodenokoto 8y ago
    So the alcohol intolerant are the control group?
- noego 8y ago
  No, that's a strong point of the study. The later section of the article explains why.
mnm1 8y ago
No shit. The only reason people think that moderate consumption is healthy is because of widely publicized studies by the alcohol industry that were manipulated to create the illusion that moderate consumption is healthy. And because they want to rationalize their own behavior.
RickJWagner 8y ago
To each their own, but I decided to quit drinking about 20 years ago and haven't missed it a bit. I feel healthier, I have more money, and best of all I am proud to say I've always been sober in front of my kids.

34 points by Ultramanoid 8y ago

I can confirm that. Moved from moderate to heavy drinking lately - feeling much better ever since.

Unfortunately, one study cannot “debunk” anything. Between the state of conflicting information in epidemiology, the replication crisis in science in general, self reporting methodology, publication bias, etc . . . there are plenty of reasons to be skeptical. That’s not even a remark on the findings; even if the findings were the opposite, all these undermining factors would remain.

headShrinker 8y ago

As I tried to point out in another thread, the WHO, AMA, AHA, etc in 2005 designated alcohol as the next target to reduce disease. Those 3-letter acronyms are funding majority negative alcohol effect study as it agrees with their literal ‘global agenda’. That’s why researchers are producing negative alcohol effect studies and why they are so popular. Researchers want to get published. It’s also clear that much of the work is meta study or simple questionnaire. In other words, much of the new negative alcohol publications aren’t based on actual science. See? No tin-foil hats required As for this study... > Between April 1993 and December 1998, 63 257 individuals completed an in-person interview that included questions on usual diet, demographics, height and weight, use of tobacco, usual physical activity, menstrual and reproductive history (women only), medical history, and family history of cancer. The institutional review boards at the National University of Singapore and the University of Minnesota approved this study. They asked people a bunch of questions about their behavior and “usual diet” in actuality exact diet would be a more accurate indicator of disease precursors... diet controls so much of everyone’s lives and deaths more than any other modern daily life input. Unless they are consuming large amounts of alcohol aka heavy drinkers. Source study: https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/circulationaha.111.048843 https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/circulationaha....

k__ 8y ago
Are there any substances that have a similar effect as alcohol, but are more healthy?
- iMark 8y ago
  It’s being worked on https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/alcohol-hangover-liver-damage-alcosynth-david-nutt-a8841141.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/alco...
- tempguy9999 8y ago
  I've tried diethyl ether <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethyl_ether#Recreational_use> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethyl_ether#Recreational_use... recreationally. It is interesting (the metacognition part) but not very pleasant (the vapour is odourous and actually painful on your nose/lungs if huffed), and difficult to swallow if ingested. Also you stink for hours afterwards. And it's dangerously flammable. As always, when I try something new I do a lot of reading up first to suss the risks, and one article I came across claimed that it was less harmful than alcohol. I don't know if that's true, just reporting. Read up erowid experiences first if you do try it. And if you do, don't be fucking stupid - I get tired of the way people so easily abuse any drug, even alcohol. Perhaps especially alcohol. I can't particularly recommend it. FYI anyway. edit: formatting
  - k__ 8y ago
    lol, is this the stuff they take in "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" when they see the crocodiles?
    - tempguy9999 8y ago
      Umm, I doubt it. I mentioned ether in response to the question about alcohol, and didn't make it clear that my point was the effect is similar to alcohol (though not quite the same - you retain some clarity and you don't get hungry afterwards). You're no more likely to hallucinate on one any more than the other IME. I guess it's acid or mescaline instead. I understand that F&LiLV tended to big up (or even invent) the drugs' effects (bullshit about adrenochrome? "In the DVD commentary, director Terry Gilliam admits that his and Thompson's portrayal is a fictional exaggeration" <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrenochrome> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrenochrome>). Ether just gets you pissed a bit like booze, that's all. Oh, here we go “The only thing that really worried me was the ether. There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge. And I knew we'd get into that rotten stuff pretty soon [...]” <https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/320840-the-only-thing-that-really-worried-me-was-the-ether> https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/320840-the-only-thing-that-... yep, that strikes me as bullshit.

coldtea 8y ago

Yeah, and the next study will re-instate that drinking can be healthy. Until those studies have been going on for decades, with counter studies, and criticism, etc, and end up part of conventional 101 university curriculum, any individual study (even meta-study, also shoddily done more often than not) is not worth the paper they are printed on for the average reader.

feinmann 8y ago
You cannot criticize academic studies here. You see, everything has to be evaluated on its own merit, so you have to read all 535.134 pro and 611.232 contra studies and have time to debate them, just like a bureaucrat. Alternatively, quote a rogue authority, like Feynman: "A committee is twelve people doing the work of one".

inciampati 8y ago

> Because the variants have specific and large effects on alcohol, but do not effect other lifestyle factors such as diet, smoking, economic status or education, they can be used by scientists to nail down causal effects of alcohol intake. Well, yes, but only in people with a similar genetic background. Using this as a kind of instrumental variable assumes an additive or linear model of genome environment interactions which is about as realistic as a flat Earth model. It may be that this study is being oversold.

jimhefferon 8y ago

The article seems to say that it is the blood pressure that statistically causes strokes, and that even moderate drinking statistically raises blood pressure. Is that a fair summary?

WalterSear 8y ago
They keep mentioning the two, but never explicitly state the connection.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

propter_hoc 8y ago

FWIW, I've been struggling with gallstone issues recently, and my doctor actually advised me to have a glass of wine a night. Here are two recent studies on the topic. [1] Alcohol consumption and risk of gallstone disease: a meta-analysis. Wang J, et al. Eur J Gastroenterol Hepatol. 2017. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/27926662/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/27926662/ "A linear dose-response relationship was found between alcohol consumption and gallstone disease risk and the risk of gallstone disease decreased by 12% (RR=0.88, 95% CI: 0.84-0.92; Pnonlinearity=0.079) for each 10 g/day increment in alcohol consumption. This meta-analysis suggests that alcohol consumption is associated with significantly decreased risk of gallstone disease." [2] Alcohol Consumption Can Reduce the Risk of Gallstone Disease: A Systematic Review with a Dose-Response Meta-Analysis of Case-Control and Cohort Studies. Cha BH, et al. Gut Liver. 2019. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/30665280/?i=6&from=/27926662/related https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/30665280/?i=6&from=/27... "In this systematic review with meta-analysis, alcohol consumption could decrease the risk of GSD, and the dose-response analysis revealed a dose-dependent linear risk reduction and a weakened linear trend between alcohol consumption levels less than and greater than 28 g/day."

partiallypro 8y ago

"The research, which used data from a 160,000-strong cohort of Chinese adults, many of whom are unable to drink alcohol due to genetic intolerance" That seems like a pretty big flaw in the study, no?

achamayou 8y ago
Depends, it might also be a feature if you suspect people under-report their drinking. Your non-drinking group may in fact be drinking just as much as your moderate drinking group.
tlamponi 8y ago
If you had read all: > This [..] study [..] focused on people of East Asian descent, many of whom have genetic variants that limit alcohol tolerance. > Because the variants have specific and large effects on alcohol, but do not effect other lifestyle factors such as diet, smoking, economic status or education, they can be used by scientists to nail down causal effects of alcohol intake and > The research team - including scientists from Oxford and Peking universities and the Chinese Academy of Medical Sciences, said it would be impossible to do a study of this kind in Western populations, since almost no-one there has the relevant alcohol-intolerance gene variants. it's the base pillar of their study..
- wodenokoto 8y ago
  So the alcohol intolerant are the control group?
noego 8y ago
No, that's a strong point of the study. The later section of the article explains why.

mnm1 8y ago

No shit. The only reason people think that moderate consumption is healthy is because of widely publicized studies by the alcohol industry that were manipulated to create the illusion that moderate consumption is healthy. And because they want to rationalize their own behavior.

RickJWagner 8y ago

To each their own, but I decided to quit drinking about 20 years ago and haven't missed it a bit. I feel healthier, I have more money, and best of all I am proud to say I've always been sober in front of my kids.